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Tweets/Facebook Sightings

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by ironcat on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:56 pm

[quote="bluwavz"][quote="ironcat"]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I'll admit I'm confused as to how he couldn't have known at least a little bit about the connection JP and Ashley shared. There were more than a few moments where he should've caught on. You mentioned one of them. Another one was Ashley telling JP first about Bentley's return. Also JP getting the rose on the group date when he thought he wouldn't. I do wonder why he thought Lucas would get it, though? no idea

I really think much of it is a matter of TPTB telling him he's the F1 or at least implying it and he just didn't bother to question anything he saw or heard because of it.

I agree. Ben dismissing what should have been some obvious signs that Ash and JP were really tight, IMO could only be attributed to being pretty much told to dismiss them by the producers. Nothing else makes sense to me.

I am also curious what the reasoning was behind Ben thinking that JP was the "easy" choice, when from my perspective, he himself was the easy choice, and if it also had something to do with what the producers were telling him in order to convince him to dismiss JP as real competition.

You just reminded me of something I meant to bring up earlier. At the rose ceremony in episode 9 when Ashley was giving JP the rose, Ben had this look on his face. It seemed dismissive to me, though I'm curious what anyone else thought of it.

I always thought that Ashley was almost afraid to make eye contact with JP at that RC for fear of blushing, after what must have happened between them the night before (the sex!!). So she was mostly looking at Ben and maybe Ben interpreted this as she was more interested in him than in JP?

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by bluwavz on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I wonder also if maybe JP didn't share anything about his dates with the other guys? That might also influence what they thought about JP &Ash's connection.
Maybe, but quite a few of the guys (William, Ryan, West, to name a few) said in their post-exit interviews that it was obvious to them that JP and Ashley were totally in to each other, and even when everyone was in the same room, they would gravitate to each other. Not sure how they all saw it and Ben missed it, without either willful blindness or producer interference. My guess is the latter.

Ben was only on one group date with JP and he got the rose on that date, so out of all the guys he'd be the least likely to see the connection JP and Ashley shared. Of course, TPTB probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I know that Ben was only on one group date with JP, but I find it hard to believe he was clueless of her attraction to JP. Ben is a smart guy. I mean JP was in the F2 with him. Listen, guys are no different. They sit around and talk about who is making a connection and who isn't. William and West were also only on the Orphanage date with JP, and Ryan was on the Orphanage and Boxing dates. So William and West saw enough at the Orphanage date and/or chatter around the house to see the strong connection. Even though Ben got the rose, everyone saw JP carrying her back from the beach in the rain. I like Ben, but if he didn't see anything with JP then he is very naive.

I'll admit I'm confused as to how he couldn't have known at least a little bit about the connection JP and Ashley shared. There were more than a few moments where he should've caught on. You mentioned one of them. Another one was Ashley telling JP first about Bentley's return. Also JP getting the rose on the group date when he thought he wouldn't. I do wonder why he thought Lucas would get it, though? no idea

I really think much of it is a matter of TPTB telling him he's the F1 or at least implying it and he just didn't bother to question anything he saw or heard because of it.

I agree. Ben dismissing what should have been some obvious signs that Ash and JP were really tight, IMO could only be attributed to being pretty much told to dismiss them by the producers. Nothing else makes sense to me.

I am also curious what the reasoning was behind Ben thinking that JP was the "easy" choice, when from my perspective, he himself was the easy choice, and if it also had something to do with what the producers were telling him in order to convince him to dismiss JP as real competition.

You just reminded me of something I meant to bring up earlier. At the rose ceremony in episode 9 when Ashley was giving JP the rose, Ben had this look on his face. It seemed dismissive to me, though I'm curious what anyone else thought of it.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by ironcat on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I wonder also if maybe JP didn't share anything about his dates with the other guys? That might also influence what they thought about JP &Ash's connection.
Maybe, but quite a few of the guys (William, Ryan, West, to name a few) said in their post-exit interviews that it was obvious to them that JP and Ashley were totally in to each other, and even when everyone was in the same room, they would gravitate to each other. Not sure how they all saw it and Ben missed it, without either willful blindness or producer interference. My guess is the latter.

Ben was only on one group date with JP and he got the rose on that date, so out of all the guys he'd be the least likely to see the connection JP and Ashley shared. Of course, TPTB probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I know that Ben was only on one group date with JP, but I find it hard to believe he was clueless of her attraction to JP. Ben is a smart guy. I mean JP was in the F2 with him. Listen, guys are no different. They sit around and talk about who is making a connection and who isn't. William and West were also only on the Orphanage date with JP, and Ryan was on the Orphanage and Boxing dates. So William and West saw enough at the Orphanage date and/or chatter around the house to see the strong connection. Even though Ben got the rose, everyone saw JP carrying her back from the beach in the rain. I like Ben, but if he didn't see anything with JP then he is very naive.

I'll admit I'm confused as to how he couldn't have known at least a little bit about the connection JP and Ashley shared. There were more than a few moments where he should've caught on. You mentioned one of them. Another one was Ashley telling JP first about Bentley's return. Also JP getting the rose on the group date when he thought he wouldn't. I do wonder why he thought Lucas would get it, though? no idea

I really think much of it is a matter of TPTB telling him he's the F1 or at least implying it and he just didn't bother to question anything he saw or heard because of it.

I agree. Ben dismissing what should have been some obvious signs that Ash and JP were really tight, IMO could only be attributed to being pretty much told to dismiss them by the producers. Nothing else makes sense to me.

I am also curious what the reasoning was behind Ben thinking that JP was the "easy" choice, when from my perspective, he himself was the easy choice, and if it also had something to do with what the producers were telling him in order to convince him to dismiss JP as real competition.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by bluwavz on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:31 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I wonder also if maybe JP didn't share anything about his dates with the other guys? That might also influence what they thought about JP &Ash's connection.
Maybe, but quite a few of the guys (William, Ryan, West, to name a few) said in their post-exit interviews that it was obvious to them that JP and Ashley were totally in to each other, and even when everyone was in the same room, they would gravitate to each other. Not sure how they all saw it and Ben missed it, without either willful blindness or producer interference. My guess is the latter.

Ben was only on one group date with JP and he got the rose on that date, so out of all the guys he'd be the least likely to see the connection JP and Ashley shared. Of course, TPTB probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I know that Ben was only on one group date with JP, but I find it hard to believe he was clueless of her attraction to JP. Ben is a smart guy. I mean JP was in the F2 with him. Listen, guys are no different. They sit around and talk about who is making a connection and who isn't. William and West were also only on the Orphanage date with JP, and Ryan was on the Orphanage and Boxing dates. So William and West saw enough at the Orphanage date and/or chatter around the house to see the strong connection. Even though Ben got the rose, everyone saw JP carrying her back from the beach in the rain. I like Ben, but if he didn't see anything with JP then he is very naive.

I'll admit I'm confused as to how he couldn't have known at least a little bit about the connection JP and Ashley shared. There were more than a few moments where he should've caught on. You mentioned one of them. Another one was Ashley telling JP first about Bentley's return. Also JP getting the rose on the group date when he thought he wouldn't. I do wonder why he thought Lucas would get it, though? no idea

I really think much of it is a matter of TPTB telling him he's the F1 or at least implying it and he just didn't bother to question anything he saw or heard because of it.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by GrahamGal on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:18 pm

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I wonder also if maybe JP didn't share anything about his dates with the other guys? That might also influence what they thought about JP &Ash's connection.
Maybe, but quite a few of the guys (William, Ryan, West, to name a few) said in their post-exit interviews that it was obvious to them that JP and Ashley were totally in to each other, and even when everyone was in the same room, they would gravitate to each other. Not sure how they all saw it and Ben missed it, without either willful blindness or producer interference. My guess is the latter.

Ben was only on one group date with JP and he got the rose on that date, so out of all the guys he'd be the least likely to see the connection JP and Ashley shared. Of course, TPTB probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I know that Ben was only on one group date with JP, but I find it hard to believe he was clueless of her attraction to JP. Ben is a smart guy. I mean JP was in the F2 with him. Listen, guys are no different. They sit around and talk about who is making a connection and who isn't. William and West were also only on the Orphanage date with JP, and Ryan was on the Orphanage and Boxing dates. So William and West saw enough at the Orphanage date and/or chatter around the house to see the strong connection. Even though Ben got the rose, everyone saw JP carrying her back from the beach in the rain. I like Ben, but if he didn't see anything with JP then he is very naive.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by Guest on Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:18 pm

@Love_Me wrote:Thanks everyone. We might never know what the heck Fijiman saw or was told, but I appreciate the discussion we had about it. I really appreciate the patience and support everyone showed me during that somewhat stressful time trying to figure out what was going on. So thanks again. There are people who reached out to me that offered support as friends that will always be more important then this show.
Love_me, You deserve everyone's love for just being who you are and all the work you do for this site. San too. blowkiss

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by Love_Me on Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:My opinion is (and I assume many of you will hate me) Ben needs to go out and date more, he needs more experience to see how a girl will act if she is totally into to him. Ashley did just great, back home we would say she did gave him a good flirt. Many of these guys have recognized it, like Mike, Blake and Lucas.

Please forgive my English as it is my second language.


ulla, you are expressing your opinion so no one will hate you. I understand what you are saying. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by ulla on Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:45 pm

My opinion is (and I assume many of you will hate me) Ben needs to go out and date more, he needs more experience to see how a girl will act if she is totally into to him. Ashley did just great, back home we would say she did gave him a good flirt. Many of these guys have recognized it, like Mike, Blake and Lucas.

Please forgive my English as it is my second language.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by ironcat on Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:18 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:..... I'm sorry, but finally slipping him the tongue on the last date (if she even did) and making a suggestive comment to him in the mud pit doesn't even come close to how much leads have misled their F2s in the past, all of whom came into the FRC with far less confidence than Ben did.

I have heard a couple of posters say that her last kiss was very passonate and more than what they had been. I tried going back to rewatch Ben's LCD or look at a sc and try as I may I can't find either. However, as I was watching, I did not see any change in how she kissed Ben-- they were alll closed mouth kisses. Also, I think that the comment in the mud pit was very edited and blown out of porportion by some (not saying you IC, just others that have posted). If you go back and rewatch the mud pit, Ben easily reaches down and gets a handful of mud when Ashley says, I wish I could just reach down and .... and then she gives her little groan which I believe it added in! Just another way TPTB slice and dice to make things seem more than they are. Obviously jmo.

No, I agree with you. I was just going with the worst case scenario, that Ashley "led Ben on" by giving him a somewhat more passionate kiss on the LCD (after repeated circumspect pecks throughout the rest of the show) and making what might have been a suggestive comment. The way some people are reacting is that anybody would and should have interpreted those little things as clear proof that Ashley was in love with Ben, and I couldn't disagree more. I remember seasons past, Meredith telling Matt she would be honored to be offered a ring, Andy telling Bevin he loved her, Bob making out for weeks with Kelly Jo (and probably having sex with her), Jesse possibly doing the same with Tara, even Deanna kissed Jason with more passion, as did Jillian with Kip and Reid (and harrassed each about proposing to her as well). That's leading someone on.

OTOH, Ashley I think really tried to be more restrained with Ben throughout, despite what I expect was frequent producer encouragement to be more romantic with him, and as a result maybe she didn't realize that Ben was going to be totally blindsided when he proposed, but would kind of see it coming, especially when she gave him major sad face and didn't laugh at his joke about "no ring on her finger" upon his arrival at FRC. Of course, she had no way of knowing what crazy ideas the producers may have been putting in his head.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by Love_Me on Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:15 pm

Thanks everyone. We might never know what the heck Fijiman saw or was told, but I appreciate the discussion we had about it. I really appreciate the patience and support everyone showed me during that somewhat stressful time trying to figure out what was going on. So thanks again. There are people who reached out to me that offered support as friends that will always be more important then this show.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by LibbyBell on Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:..... I'm sorry, but finally slipping him the tongue on the last date (if she even did) and making a suggestive comment to him in the mud pit doesn't even come close to how much leads have misled their F2s in the past, all of whom came into the FRC with far less confidence than Ben did.

I have heard a couple of posters say that her last kiss was very passonate and more than what they had been. I tried going back to rewatch Ben's LCD or look at a sc and try as I may I can't find either. However, as I was watching, I did not see any change in how she kissed Ben-- they were alll closed mouth kisses. Also, I think that the comment in the mud pit was very edited and blown out of porportion by some (not saying you IC, just others that have posted). If you go back and rewatch the mud pit, Ben easily reaches down and gets a handful of mud when Ashley says, I wish I could just reach down and .... and then she gives her little groan which I believe it added in! Just another way TPTB slice and dice to make things seem more than they are. Obviously jmo.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

Post by Nativenewyorker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:It was also clear to me that Ben wanted to believe that Ashley was in love with him. It was easy to manipulate him. My only question for Ben is; did he not wonder why Ashley told JP first about Bentley and then told the others including himself as a group. That would have bothered me. I think that started Lucas to thinking once JP mentioned it.

But, I do agree the producers control the outcome to get what they want, one way or the other.

When Ashley told all the guys about Bentley's return, she never said when exactly he came back. Ben may have assumed that Bentley returned after Lucas' date and the group date, but before JP's date and that's why she told JP before anyone else. Or the producers either implied or told Ben he was the F1 at that point, so Ben just didn't think anything of it.

If it's true that the producers told Ben he was F1, then I wonder when they did so? I remember in episode 7, Ben told Ashley he was confident he was getting a HTD. In the same episode, he said he didn't think JP was getting the rose on the group date. He thought Lucas was getting it. He sounded pretty confident about it. I remember finding that really weird. Maybe episode 7 is where it began?


This is the thing that has been bothering me. It sounds so out of character for Ben. I always wondered if he really thought that JP wouldn't get the group date rose because he was so upset about Ben's overnight date with Ashley, or that he just didn't want him to get it. I never understood that. Did the producers encourage him at this point, maybe by pointing out how JP was freaking out and feeling so insecure? I never understood his complete confidence. It's normal to have some doubts. There is no such thing as a sure thing on this show.

I am beginning to think that the producers did have a hand in giving Ben a false sense of confidence that he was "the one". That makes his behavior going into the FRC much more believable and reasonable. I have never seen anyone go into it as sure as Ben. Who knows what kind of manipulation and mind games the producers played to get Ben to be that confident.

Especially when you take into account that he appeared to be even more confident than JP was, who we now know had already been told by Ashley that she loved him. In reality, JP was the one who had every reason to be overconfident based on Ashley's words/actions, not Ben.

Yet the edit wanted us to believe that Ben was the one who was confident while JP was nervous. As it turned out both guys, based on the edit, were wrong in their thinking, and that was clearly part of the storyline that the producers created and wanted to get across. And in order to get that storyline to play out correctly, Ben needed to be overconfident, despite having no more reason, based on Ashley's words and behavior, to be any more confident than any typical F1 or F2 has been in the past. The only place it could have come from to that degree is the producers. I'm sorry, but finally slipping him the tongue on the last date (if she even did) and making a suggestive comment to him in the mud pit doesn't even come close to how much leads have misled their F2s in the past, all of whom came into the FRC with far less confidence than Ben did.


And, this is why I said earlier I believe no matter what Ashley said, or did, Ben believed Ashley was in love with him and this had to come from sources he trusted or thought knew what was going on. ie the producers. Because Ben had been so closed off for so long and was finally ready to open up it was easy for the producers. He really liked Ashley and believed he was in love with her. He just never considered that Ashley could be into JP. He knew JP was into her, but, when JP came home with that group date rose and Lucas was sent home, this should have been a hint to him to keep his eyes open. But, because they would not be together as a group anymore he was easy prey to the producers. He would not see any more interactions between JP and Ashley or any other the other guys. He only had his gut and the producers to go by. Well, we know his gut has been offline for awhile and the producers were not his "friend". I hope if Ben becomes the next bachelor he keep this experience in the fore front of his mind.

I think you hit on the key points in your comments in bold. I do think that Ben was vulnerable to producer manipulation even more so because he was closed off emotionally for a while. In real life, he would have been able to rely on family and friends for feedback. Here he was dependent on the producers, who had their own agenda.

I always thought that JP getting the group date Rose and Lucas going home, should have a wakeup call for Ben. He seemed to believe that JP freaking out over his overnight date with Ashley, might be a problem. However, Ashley reacted in the exact opposite way by giving him the rose. That would have made me sit up and take notice. However, since the guys were separate from that point on, it might have been easier for Ben to believe what the producers were telling him, not seeing what was happening with JP and Ashley.

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Re: Tweets/Facebook Sightings

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