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Bachelorette 15 - Luke Parker - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

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Post by just me on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:43 am

@RizBiz wrote:
@Sharnee wrote:The statistics are average  height of men is 5’9”.

Thanks for looking that detail up Sharnee : thumbsup  Confirmation that Luke isn’t REALLY short.  Bachelorette 15 - Luke Parker - *Sleuthing Spoilers* - Page 21 3806527698

And as interesting as it is to be ‘armchair psychologists’ analyzing the contestants on this show, one must be reminded that the ‘person’ deemed ‘needing  to grow from his experience and do self evaluation’, is actually a fabricated ‘partial’ person, based upon an edit. Viewers are ‘hating’ and judging a ‘created character’ on a show.

I have no doubt that  he, as well as ALL of the participants, WILL do some self evaluation after watching themselves on national TV, reading the online and social media responses.

My question still remains, is this edited Luke , whom we are being shown, so evil in real life? (And was he really so evil on the show?)
Was he so  wrong in his expectations of winning Hannah’s heart?
Was he so wrong in his  expectations or understanding of a committed relationship after all of this?

Will he actually have to make a LOT of changes  to his character ?
For what end?
To try to satisfy the viewers and their opinions?

And will he have to make more drastic changes than other guys on this show such as Scott? Tyler G? Luke S? And now Jed??!!
They ALL have flaws but we were only shown partial persons.


In his real life, as a real person, Luke has the right to expect his girlfriend to stay faithful to him.
Not to cheat on him with other guys.
Not to  have sex with other guys while in a relationship with him.
Most of us have those expectations in REAL life.
Most of us would be shocked to learn that the person we loved was doing a semi nude bungee jump with someone else, or having sex with someone else, while they were in a relationship with us.  Yes, I get it. That’s the premise of the show which he signed up for.
But to shut ones NORMAL  emotions and expectations OFF is not that easy, when one is serious about finding the love of your life. And when you think you are the front runner. And when one thinks (foolishly so) that this is what everybody in production is rooting for.

Luke took those very realistic, real life  expectations onto a show, a show that isn’t really real life...
(Yes it is but no it’s not. )
Hence his emotional dilemma and the resulting fiasco of being a failure as a ‘contestant’.
Hence his becoming the “villain”.

I hope he realizes today that  his real life expectations of relationships, which  are being  villified on this non-real, reality show,) are perfectly normal in real life and that he will probably do just fine in a regular dating relationship in REAL life.

And to add. Just something noted in Luke’s edit.
On the first night, cameras made sure to note that he drank water and was not drinking alcohol as the rest were.
For the preview this week, the camera made sure to zoom in on Luke downing a shot with gusto.

Have they done this as explicitly with the other guys? Not that I have noticed.
Sending a subliminal Message?
To me, it appeared that he was desperate to please her, desperate to fit in, and so compromised by doing what he thought she wanted.

Just all my humble opinion.
I really, really like your humble and IMO wise opinion. This statement you made - among many- stood out to me: "Viewers are ‘hating’ and judging a ‘created character’ on a show".                                                 They have spliced and diced to create this Luke we view. Showing us scenes -without all that was said or done to him- before the words we hear ( not even at times- the whole sentence he spoke). Some of the guys IMO are competing to win the fame- not really the girl. Hannah is young. She reminds me of a young girl in a candy store that is given free reign to explore. I noted in the beginning that she said she wanted a man who was bold in his stance of wanting her. Then she is offended at such behavior? Not many men that really are interested in a girl are going to be great on sharing- especially when it comes to physical affection. If they just want the fame at the end of the journey and kind of like the girl that comes with it- where will it end in the long run? Finding someone to date for a time- while you do photo shoots, appear on TV, build up your career choice and build up your Instagram followers-  did not in the beginning of this show seem to be the aim of the show. I am thinking of Ryan and Trista. I want the love story- if there is one possible. Colton Underwood was an example of a guy IMO that really went on the show the second time to find "his girl" and fought for the real thing.
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Post by albean99 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:04 pm

@RizBiz wrote:Doggoneit, no worries. handwave
It’s just that the sequence of comments after yours was sdmom asking what his height had to do with Luke the person ( a valid question) and then the following post by albean99, which is what caused me to respond in defence of sdmom.
@albean99 wrote:Just a reminder that this isn’t a fan thread so  criticism of Luke is allowed.

It appeared that albean99 posted her comment in response to sgmom’s comment to yours and albean referenced your post as ‘criticism of Luke’.
Therefore my comment in response to that.

But hey, if you did not mean it as a derogatory comment, my apologies.
However, 5’8” isn’t REALLY short.

Actually, I didn't take it as a criticism of Luke but some did which is why I posted what I did.


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Post by 4health on Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:43 am

@RizBiz wrote: In his real life, as a real person, Luke has the right to expect his girlfriend to stay faithful to him.
Not to cheat on him with other guys.
Not to  have sex with other guys while in a relationship with him.
Most of us have those expectations in REAL life.
Most of us would be shocked to learn that the person we loved was doing a semi nude bungee jump with someone else, or having sex with someone else, while they were in a relationship with us.  Yes, I get it. That’s the premise of the show which he signed up for.
But to shut ones NORMAL  emotions and expectations OFF is not that easy, when one is serious about finding the love of your life. And when you think you are the front runner. And when one thinks (foolishly so) that this is what everybody in production is rooting for.



And to add. Just something noted in Luke’s edit.

Once again I know I am out of the norm.  Just watching the new preview that is out, I can't help but notice the power of the edit.   They have manipulated and chopped footage to continue with their storyline.   IMO it is very obvious that Luke is her frontrunner to this point.  The only person that you see her talk to him about "my husband" in more than one conversation.   Last episode CH asking her "why" about Luke right after you hear Dustin say "she is already in love with him" as a reason she keeps him.  Then you see and hear her say "I am either in love or going crazy".   TPTB loves drama and Luke is giving it of course, but in new preview IMO Garrett is a villian also.  I really don't like him.  The viewers are just talking about Luke but Garrett ??? he deserves to go home and I am glad Hannah does just that.   He just can't leave Luke alone.     The viewers don't remember all the scenes that the tbtp show in season previews and don't end up on the show.  We only see Luke and Hannah during GD after party talking about him questioning her, we didn't see the make-out session that we know is Luke in the previews/screencaps.    

I would really love to know at what point did tptb decide to make the story all about Luke the manipulative, psychopath, Christian that destroys Hannah's season?   Because for me a long time watcher of this show, Hannah is liking the attention of all the men but Luke is the one she is crying about, thinking about, and chasing.  So, when he does question her about the other relationships that's a switch for Luke, he has been trying to prove himself to her, he is asking for her to prove to him of her feelings.   IMO of course

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Post by USAGold on Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:48 am

@4health wrote:
@RizBiz wrote: In his real life, as a real person, Luke has the right to expect his girlfriend to stay faithful to him.
Not to cheat on him with other guys.
Not to  have sex with other guys while in a relationship with him.
Most of us have those expectations in REAL life.
Most of us would be shocked to learn that the person we loved was doing a semi nude bungee jump with someone else, or having sex with someone else, while they were in a relationship with us.  Yes, I get it. That’s the premise of the show which he signed up for.
But to shut ones NORMAL  emotions and expectations OFF is not that easy, when one is serious about finding the love of your life. And when you think you are the front runner. And when one thinks (foolishly so) that this is what everybody in production is rooting for.



And to add. Just something noted in Luke’s edit.

Once again I know I am out of the norm.  Just watching the new preview that is out, I can't help but notice the power of the edit.   They have manipulated and chopped footage to continue with their storyline.   IMO it is very obvious that Luke is her frontrunner to this point.  The only person that you see her talk to him about "my husband" in more than one conversation.   Last episode CH asking her "why" about Luke right after you hear Dustin say "she is already in love with him" as a reason she keeps him.  Then you see and hear her say "I am either in love or going crazy".   TPTB loves drama and Luke is giving it of course, but in new preview IMO Garrett is a villian also.  I really don't like him.  The viewers are just talking about Luke but Garrett ??? he deserves to go home and I am glad Hannah does just that.   He just can't leave Luke alone.     The viewers don't remember all the scenes that the tbtp show in season previews and don't end up on the show.  We only see Luke and Hannah during GD after party talking about him questioning her, we didn't see the make-out session that we know is Luke in the previews/screencaps.    

I would really love to know at what point did tptb decide to make the story all about Luke the manipulative, psychopath, Christian that destroys Hannah's season?   Because for me a long time watcher of this show, Hannah is liking the attention of all the men but Luke is the one she is crying about, thinking about, and chasing.  So, when he does question her about the other relationships that's a switch for Luke, he has been trying to prove himself to her, he is asking for her to prove to him of her feelings.   IMO of course



I agree with what you wrote ! I know it’s not the popular view that’s for sure !
But IMO she wants it to be him up until it details ! And even with her sit down with Chris she still picked Luke as the best kisser ! She is very physical with him that’s for sure and we’ve probably not even seen a lot of it !

All IMO

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Post by North on Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:37 am

Question.

What do you think would've happened it Hannah picked Luke and he was now watching the show back? Particularly her physical relationships with the other guys? How would that go over?

I am not a fan of Luke P. I think he has a lot of issues that are clearly on display throughout the show (low social and emotional intelligence, poor communication skills, controlling tendencies, habitual liar, etc...) but I can't fault him for wanting to be clear about his views on physical intimacy when dating. His delivery was bad and he placed a great deal of blame on Hannah, typical Luke but my question here is why hadn't Hannah & Luke had this conversation earlier? He wasn't complaining when she was taking his shirt off in Episode 2. Both southern, both Christian, did he assume one thing in regards to this and she assumed another? Did Luke assume he was the only one she was macking on?

And then weirdly, it seems like sex doesn't come up again until it blows-up during Fantasy Suites - 3 dates later. Like if it was so important to Luke -- this conversation should've been discussed again the next time they had one-on-one time together. This seems so problematic to me.

ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship. Even if it was about religion and Sunday dinners and raising Christian families -- it would've been good to see that. I don't doubt there was a connection, b/c Hannah speaks to it and is constantly trying to get back to it, but it wasn't shown. All we see of them is in complete disagreement and butting heads or randomly making out. I don't understand why Luke would want to be with Hannah or Hannah to be with Luke. As seen on our TV, they are terrible together.

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Post by BlueTone on Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:58 am

@North wrote:Question.

What do you think would've happened it Hannah picked Luke and he was now watching the show back? Particularly her physical relationships with the other guys? How would that go over?
*snipped*

I was thinking about this during a preview where Hannah climbed onto his lap and straddled him, then he said something like "I know I'm the one" with a big grin on his face. It's hard to believe he never noticed how affectionate she was with the other guys. He was living in his own little fantasy world. imo.


Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Ozzy Osbourne
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Post by just me on Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:12 am

@North wrote:Question.

What do you think would've happened it Hannah picked Luke and he was now watching the show back? Particularly her physical relationships with the other guys? How would that go over?

I am not a fan of Luke P. I think he has a lot of issues that are clearly on display throughout the show (low social and emotional intelligence, poor communication skills, controlling tendencies, habitual liar, etc...) but I can't fault him for wanting to be clear about his views on physical intimacy when dating. His delivery was bad and he placed a great deal of blame on Hannah, typical Luke but my question here is why hadn't Hannah & Luke had this conversation earlier? He wasn't complaining when she was taking his shirt off in Episode 2. Both southern, both Christian, did he assume one thing in regards to this and she assumed another? Did Luke assume he was the only one she was macking on?

And then weirdly, it seems like sex doesn't come up again until it blows-up during Fantasy Suites - 3 dates later. Like if it was so important to Luke -- this conversation should've been discussed again the next time they had one-on-one time together. This seems so problematic to me.

ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship. Even if it was about religion and Sunday dinners and raising Christian families -- it would've been good to see that. I don't doubt there was a connection, b/c Hannah speaks to it and is constantly trying to get back to it, but it wasn't shown. All we see of them is in complete disagreement and butting heads or randomly making out. I don't understand why Luke would want to be with Hannah or Hannah to be with Luke. As seen on our TV, they are terrible together.


I think you stated the correct answer here: "ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship" . IMO they decided early on to make Luke a villain. They knew Hannah really liked him but did not want her committing to someone so early in the game. I believe they orchestrated this whole mess we are now watching. They pointed out a cheater- removed someone she liked with no revealed reason- and Hannah ended up with a cheater that they for some reason never knew about (or did they?) Why focus so much on the music of someone? Adds to the drama that is now all over the internet doesn't it? All IMO only.
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Post by blueblues on Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:21 am

@4health wrote:I would really love to know at what point did tptb decide to make the story all about Luke the manipulative, psychopath, Christian that destroys Hannah's season?   Because for me a long time watcher of this show, Hannah is liking the attention of all the men but Luke is the one she is crying about, thinking about, and chasing.  So, when he does question her about the other relationships that's a switch for Luke, he has been trying to prove himself to her, he is asking for her to prove to him of her feelings.   IMO of course
Since he IS all those things and more IMO, probably at the psych evaluation when they realized they had struck villain gold. They must have thought that they would need to force Hannah to keep him until a 2 on 1 at Ep. 5, much like Chad with JoJo, but when Hannah actually fell for him I guess they saw it as a bonus, since they are wired that way.

IMO there is something fundamentally wrong with Luke, and I fear for the next woman who dates him.
All JMO

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Post by North on Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:48 am

@just me wrote:
@North wrote:Question.

What do you think would've happened it Hannah picked Luke and he was now watching the show back? Particularly her physical relationships with the other guys? How would that go over?

I am not a fan of Luke P. I think he has a lot of issues that are clearly on display throughout the show (low social and emotional intelligence, poor communication skills, controlling tendencies, habitual liar, etc...) but I can't fault him for wanting to be clear about his views on physical intimacy when dating. His delivery was bad and he placed a great deal of blame on Hannah, typical Luke but my question here is why hadn't Hannah & Luke had this conversation earlier? He wasn't complaining when she was taking his shirt off in Episode 2. Both southern, both Christian, did he assume one thing in regards to this and she assumed another? Did Luke assume he was the only one she was macking on?

And then weirdly, it seems like sex doesn't come up again until it blows-up during Fantasy Suites - 3 dates later. Like if it was so important to Luke -- this conversation should've been discussed again the next time they had one-on-one time together. This seems so problematic to me.

ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship. Even if it was about religion and Sunday dinners and raising Christian families -- it would've been good to see that. I don't doubt there was a connection, b/c Hannah speaks to it and is constantly trying to get back to it, but it wasn't shown. All we see of them is in complete disagreement and butting heads or randomly making out. I don't understand why Luke would want to be with Hannah or Hannah to be with Luke. As seen on our TV, they are terrible together.
                                                                             

I think you stated the correct answer here: "ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship" . IMO they decided early on to make Luke a villain. They knew Hannah really liked him but did not want her committing to someone so early in the game. I believe they orchestrated this whole mess we are now watching.                            They pointed out a cheater- removed someone she liked with no revealed reason- and Hannah ended up with a cheater that they for some reason never knew about (or did they?) Why focus so much on the music of someone? Adds to the drama that is now all over the internet doesn't it? All IMO only.

See, I don't think TPTB needed to make Luke the villain. He did that all by himself by being possessive with Hannah, aggressive with the men, and lying. The blatant lying was just so, so, so offensive. He's also, IMO, really immature. Sure, TPTB used what they had - and they had a lot. Luke clearly needs to work on himself and recognize some of those undesirable personality traits that were on display throughout the season. His gaslighting of Hannah isn't something he can say didn't happen b/c the words come out of his mouth in one scene and then he denies he said them in another. No editing. I don't know if Luke is some master manipulator or just too self-absorbed and narcissistic to know what he is doing but man, watching him blame and dodge and lie to Hannah is tough to swallow.

This isn't an Olivia Cardi situation where during the season you could see TPTB fashioning her into a weak "villain" of the season. She was awkward and insecure and uncomfortable. Luke is a possessive and aggressive young man and his worst traits were exposed during this experience. I am sure the Producers goaded him as well as Garrett (UGH!) into confrontation but what he said and did after that is all on him. And it is in no way right. IMO.

It still boggles my mind why either of them wants the other. All the arguing and explaining and gaslighting are just exhausting to watch. Hannah is clearly exasperated, Luke clearly doesn't understand what she wants or needs. Why all the work?! They spent a few hours together?!?! And they clearly have different views on important things like body autonomy and decision-making, etc...

And for the record, Garrett is awful. His constant needling of Luke is ridiculous and unwarranted. He just needs to shut-up and stop being the TPTB's puppet. Can't wait until both of them are gone.

All in IMO.


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Post by Chgohighlife on Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 am

@blueblues wrote:
@4health wrote:I would really love to know at what point did tptb decide to make the story all about Luke the manipulative, psychopath, Christian that destroys Hannah's season?   Because for me a long time watcher of this show, Hannah is liking the attention of all the men but Luke is the one she is crying about, thinking about, and chasing.  So, when he does question her about the other relationships that's a switch for Luke, he has been trying to prove himself to her, he is asking for her to prove to him of her feelings.   IMO of course
Since he IS all those things and more IMO, probably at the psych evaluation when they realized they had struck villain gold. They must have thought that they would need to force Hannah to keep him until a 2 on 1 at Ep. 5, much like Chad with JoJo, but when Hannah actually fell for him I guess they saw it as a bonus, since they are wired that way.

IMO there is something fundamentally wrong with Luke, and I fear for the next woman who dates him.
All JMO

@blueblues I feel 100% certain you are right. Luke is everything negative listed and more and Hannah’s attraction to and tolerance for ALL Luke’s brands of dysfunction make me afraid for her, IMO. She started with the most interesting, handsome, gainfully employed, well-educated and age appropriate group of men I have ever seen on this show. Ultimately, she made a mistake with Jed but, she’s young and short on discernment so, that’s what happened. Picking Jed put egg on her face, ok. However, choosing a life with Luke would mean she needs professional intervention, IMO. He clearly suffers from severe personality disorders that could wreck someone like Hannah. I found him to be dishonest with himself and everyone else - on every level. His behavior (especially against John Paul Jones) was disturbing and dangerous, IMO. I’m grateful Hannah apparently dodged the Luke bullet.

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Post by Astrobach on Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:08 am

@North wrote:
@just me wrote:
@North wrote:Question.

What do you think would've happened it Hannah picked Luke and he was now watching the show back? Particularly her physical relationships with the other guys? How would that go over?

I am not a fan of Luke P. I think he has a lot of issues that are clearly on display throughout the show (low social and emotional intelligence, poor communication skills, controlling tendencies, habitual liar, etc...) but I can't fault him for wanting to be clear about his views on physical intimacy when dating. His delivery was bad and he placed a great deal of blame on Hannah, typical Luke but my question here is why hadn't Hannah & Luke had this conversation earlier? He wasn't complaining when she was taking his shirt off in Episode 2. Both southern, both Christian, did he assume one thing in regards to this and she assumed another? Did Luke assume he was the only one she was macking on?

And then weirdly, it seems like sex doesn't come up again until it blows-up during Fantasy Suites - 3 dates later. Like if it was so important to Luke -- this conversation should've been discussed again the next time they had one-on-one time together. This seems so problematic to me.

ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship. Even if it was about religion and Sunday dinners and raising Christian families -- it would've been good to see that. I don't doubt there was a connection, b/c Hannah speaks to it and is constantly trying to get back to it, but it wasn't shown. All we see of them is in complete disagreement and butting heads or randomly making out. I don't understand why Luke would want to be with Hannah or Hannah to be with Luke. As seen on our TV, they are terrible together.
                                                                             

I think you stated the correct answer here: "ABC did a disservice to both Hannah and Luke by not showing the foundation for their relationship" . IMO they decided early on to make Luke a villain. They knew Hannah really liked him but did not want her committing to someone so early in the game. I believe they orchestrated this whole mess we are now watching.                            They pointed out a cheater- removed someone she liked with no revealed reason- and Hannah ended up with a cheater that they for some reason never knew about (or did they?) Why focus so much on the music of someone? Adds to the drama that is now all over the internet doesn't it? All IMO only.

See, I don't think TPTB needed to make Luke the villain. He did that all by himself by being possessive with Hannah, aggressive with the men, and lying. The blatant lying was just so, so, so offensive. He's also, IMO, really immature. Sure, TPTB used what they had - and they had a lot. Luke  clearly needs to work on himself and recognize some of those undesirable personality traits that were on display throughout the season. His gaslighting of Hannah isn't something he can say didn't happen b/c the words come out of his mouth in one scene and then he denies he said them in another. No editing. I don't know if Luke is some master manipulator or just too self-absorbed and narcissistic to know what he is doing but man, watching him blame and dodge and lie to Hannah is tough to swallow.

This isn't an Olivia Cardi situation where during the season you could see TPTB fashioning her into a weak "villain" of the season. She was awkward and insecure and uncomfortable. Luke is a possessive and aggressive young man and his worst traits were exposed during this experience. I am sure the Producers goaded him as well as Garrett (UGH!) into confrontation but what he said and did after that is all on him. And it is in no way right. IMO.

It still boggles my mind why either of them wants the other. All the arguing and explaining and gaslighting are just exhausting to watch. Hannah is clearly exasperated, Luke clearly doesn't understand what she wants or needs. Why all the work?! They spent a few hours together?!?! And they clearly have different views on important things like body autonomy and decision-making, etc...

And for the record, Garrett is awful. His constant needling of Luke is ridiculous and unwarranted. He just needs to shut-up and stop being the TPTB's puppet. Can't wait until both of them are gone.

All in IMO.



To thee bolded: I agree

They found a gold mine with Luke P. They took complete advantage and magnified all these negative traits to a very unhealthy, toxic level, ( for EVERYONE) which I have never seen displayed to this extent and that duration Their standards in casting, vetting, manipulating and using possibly unstable people is alarming. Luke came to physically attack someone, under the guise of a ‘ rough’ rugby match, threatened several guys that in normal circumstances would have probably punch him back. He baited them to prove his pretend superiority. It’s is amazing to me that they mostly remained so calm and composed around him. This next episode will bet to another level of this behavior and somehow they condone it instead of throwing him to the curb like they did with Chase.
They do NEED to try to redeem and salvage this season with some kind of storybook ending, and we all know and see what that is, well I’m speaking for myself anyway, and it’s too bad that many people were hurt in the process. It’s not gonna be a great season to go back on. I don’t know if the young new producers are partly at fault because of their lack of experience but it’s not a path that I THINK is in this day and age, something to continue to pursue. There are quality people out there that could be cast without jeopardizing their ratings.


End of rant, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

MO

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Post by lleyki on Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:51 pm

See, I don't think TPTB needed to make Luke the villain. He did that all by himself by being possessive with Hannah, aggressive with the men, and lying.

This exactly and frankly I find the million defenses and excuses for him to be a bit worrisome. As I've said, while I and I'm sure most will never question and doubt that the producers are extremely manipulative, I don't believe they have the power to pull something out of someone that isn't already there.

It was like how Vanessa has talked about not being her best self during her time on the show and it exacerbating all her insecurities. But the thing is, those insecurities and anxieties were already there in her. Being on the show just made it worse because yes, it's such a fish bowl, manipulative, pressure cooker environment.

So I don't doubt that the producers were manipulative and played up the negative aspects of Luke. I just believe they were able to do that because they saw those qualities in him. As far as I'm concerned, all these ugly parts we've seen of Luke were likely already there. Being in the madness of the show just shone a brighter light on it.

At the end of the day, some can point to all factors - producers, the other contestants, Hannah herself, etc. to excuse or rationalize Luke's behavior. I however choose to subscribe to one of my favorite quotes by Maya Angelou, "when a person shows you who they are, believe them". And Luke has shown who he is and it ain't pretty.

Now before we get another round of "he's not evil and a villain and a monster". I'm not saying he is. I'm not saying Luke is irredeemable and the worse human being in the world because that would be ridiculous. What I am saying is that he displays some troubling personality traits that hopefully, his being on the show and having a very negative spotlight shone on those traits helps him to grow and be better.

lleyki

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