Bachelor 25 - Matt James - F1 - F4 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

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Post by GuardianAngel Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:52 pm

@Doats wrote:I hope my continuing wearing of ante and post bellum gowns at interpretive and living history events is not considered racist. I wear these garments to demonstrate what women of all social classes were wearing at the times. They are a means of allowing visitors to the sites to, in effect, "touch the past," one of the key elements of historical Interpretation.

Not at all! Your posts have been very informative. You are very talented! yes


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Post by LoveDovez Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:14 am

@Doats wrote:Ok, Let me first say that I'm truly not trying to be argumentative with this post. However, I am an amateur historian who currently volunteers for a museum and have, in the past, worked for a Parks department, both of which have a focus on the 1850s-1860s timeframe. Because of this I have for years worked to accurately reproduce and sew women's 19th century clothing: underpinnings, corsets, chamises, petticoats, gowns, etc. (Dresses were referred to as gowns then and the term did not imply evening dress.) And in full disclosure, I have very limited experience of men's clothing during this time period, mostly just shirts as tailoring is beyond me.

Hoops were resurrected with a vengeance in the later 1850s, mostly to relieve the heavy weight of up to the 10 petticoats that women wore to give volume to their skirts. These hooped skirts were worn by women across the U.S.; even Queen Victoria wore huge hooped skirts on her tiny stature and it was said that her skirts were the widest at the English Court. Women did not wear the hooped skirts while working (fire danger!) but donned them for other events as that was the fashion.

So having said all this, I never, in all my extensive research, ran across a reference to hooped gowns as being racist or only worn by the "upper classes." I have no opinion as to the degree of Rachael's racism as I am not on any social media; however, I did want to say that my studies and research never suggested that hooped skirts in and of themselves were an outward statement of racism.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone...


@Doats If you figure this out let me know because I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what the tie in is all about. Seems like people are trying to stretch things. IMHO
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Post by GuardianAngel Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:59 am

@LoveDovez wrote:snipped


@Doats If you figure this out let me know because I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what the tie in is all about. Seems like people are trying to stretch things. IMHO

Which people? Everyone here is posting what they are finding or their personal experiences which they are entitled to. Unless you are referring to tabloids and other SM comments that have nothing to do with our forum?


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Post by gabriele Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:42 am

@LoveDovez wrote:
@Doats wrote:Ok, Let me first say that I'm truly not trying to be argumentative with this post. However, I am an amateur historian who currently volunteers for a museum and have, in the past, worked for a Parks department, both of which have a focus on the 1850s-1860s timeframe. Because of this I have for years worked to accurately reproduce and sew women's 19th century clothing: underpinnings, corsets, chamises, petticoats, gowns, etc. (Dresses were referred to as gowns then and the term did not imply evening dress.) And in full disclosure, I have very limited experience of men's clothing during this time period, mostly just shirts as tailoring is beyond me.

Hoops were resurrected with a vengeance in the later 1850s, mostly to relieve the heavy weight of up to the 10 petticoats that women wore to give volume to their skirts. These hooped skirts were worn by women across the U.S.; even Queen Victoria wore huge hooped skirts on her tiny stature and it was said that her skirts were the widest at the English Court. Women did not wear the hooped skirts while working (fire danger!) but donned them for other events as that was the fashion.

So having said all this, I never, in all my extensive research, ran across a reference to hooped gowns as being racist or only worn by the "upper classes." I have no opinion as to the degree of Rachael's racism as I am not on any social media; however, I did want to say that my studies and research never suggested that hooped skirts in and of themselves were an outward statement of racism.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone...


@Doats If you figure this out let me know because I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what the tie in is all about. Seems like people are trying to stretch things. IMHO

This article explains why hoop skirts are seen by some as racist:

'No such thing as just a dress:' Historians respond to Azalea Belles cancellation

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Post by luvstx Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:30 am

@Diana wrote:just when I think it gets worse, it does. Holy sh*t Rachael is a vile human being and I am not sure how ANYONE could justify this. I preparing myself for bible quotes and forgiveness though. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

All IMO

Can you add some clarity to this post? I. Guessing there’s something bad about Rachael on Twitter or Instagram but I’m not on those platforms.
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Post by Doats Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:50 pm

@gabriele wrote:
@LoveDovez wrote:
@Doats wrote:Ok, Let me first say that I'm truly not trying to be argumentative with this post. However, I am an amateur historian who currently volunteers for a museum and have, in the past, worked for a Parks department, both of which have a focus on the 1850s-1860s timeframe. Because of this I have for years worked to accurately reproduce and sew women's 19th century clothing: underpinnings, corsets, chamises, petticoats, gowns, etc. (Dresses were referred to as gowns then and the term did not imply evening dress.) And in full disclosure, I have very limited experience of men's clothing during this time period, mostly just shirts as tailoring is beyond me.

Hoops were resurrected with a vengeance in the later 1850s, mostly to relieve the heavy weight of up to the 10 petticoats that women wore to give volume to their skirts. These hooped skirts were worn by women across the U.S.; even Queen Victoria wore huge hooped skirts on her tiny stature and it was said that her skirts were the widest at the English Court. Women did not wear the hooped skirts while working (fire danger!) but donned them for other events as that was the fashion.

So having said all this, I never, in all my extensive research, ran across a reference to hooped gowns as being racist or only worn by the "upper classes." I have no opinion as to the degree of Rachael's racism as I am not on any social media; however, I did want to say that my studies and research never suggested that hooped skirts in and of themselves were an outward statement of racism.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone...


@Doats If you figure this out let me know because I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what the tie in is all about. Seems like people are trying to stretch things. IMHO

This article explains why hoop skirts are seen by some as racist:

'No such thing as just a dress:' Historians respond to Azalea Belles cancellation

I disagree completely. Hooped skirts were worn across all classes. They were worn in the North, South and West. They were worn by all races. They were worn in Europe. And the link was an opinion piece as opposed to historical research on clothing. I have based my studies (and they have been bona fide academic studies) on research as opposed to opinions and feelings.

This is the last I will say on this subject.

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Post by luvnunity Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:53 pm

Y’all really think this is about Dresses? Not really looking for an answer. I’m just in disbelief...
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Post by gabriele Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:00 pm

@luvnunity wrote:Y’all really think this is about Dresses?  Not really looking for an answer.  I’m just in disbelief...
Yeah. That’s why I didn’t quote from the article and just provided the link I came across when I googled out of curiosity. The hoop skirt question isn’t really relevant to what’s happening on the show.

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Post by Doats Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:01 pm

@luvnunity wrote:Y’all really think this is about Dresses?  Not really looking for an answer.  I’m just in disbelief...

OK, I am going against a previous statement but my post was about 19th century GOWNS. I was NOT talking about balls. I was NOT talking about Rachael. I was NOT talking about anything other than 19th century dress as it appeared in the timeframe.

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Post by FLChica Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:09 pm

@Doats wrote:
@luvnunity wrote:Y’all really think this is about Dresses?  Not really looking for an answer.  I’m just in disbelief...

OK, I am going against a previous statement but my post was about 19th century GOWNS. I was NOT talking about balls. I was NOT talking about Rachael. I was NOT talking about anything other than 19th century dress as it appeared in the timeframe.

Not that it should matter, but I'm a Latina who was raised in the south married to a MOC with adult biracial sons. I appreciate @Doats and @gabriele sharing information on the hoop skirt gowns. I'm also glad to have the factual information that the Rose formal held at Georgia College was held on-campus in their Rose garden, not on a plantation. Facts matter, IMO.

The student Director of Fraternity & Sorority Life at Georgia College is a MOC, where the first AA frat was established in 1976. Evidently there are all-POC, all-"white" and multi-ethnic Greek opportunities at the university. IMO it doesn't appear the campus is a seething hotbed of racial intolerance, but I base that on what I found on-line. It seems many that have always considered themselves "not racist" are now learning about white fragility, painful micro aggressions in daily life and how to become "ant-racist" and an ally.

Just three years ago we declined to attend a wedding that was being held at a former plantation. Folks much older than college aged reality tv contestants make mistakes, so I'll cut Racheal some slack until we get all the facts. I'll also keep educating those in my circle how to be an anti-racist ally. Just my opinions.


Last edited by FLChica on Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected college name.)


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Post by Jaybird Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:01 pm

@FLChica from what I read, she went to Ga college, not Ga state. Ga State is in midtown Atlanta; Ga college is in Milledgeville. It’s about an hour or 90 mins south of Atlanta.

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Post by albean99 Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:06 pm

I have no idea what's in Rachael's heart but I do know that it's different when you live in the south. We moved to Tennessee from Canada and were at a kids soccer game when a mom quite casually used the "n" word with town after it and I don't think she even realized how offensive it was. My husband's then-boss said that he grew up in a racist family and he had to work at pulling away from their beliefs. While we were there, I toured some plantations and their slave quarters including Andrew Jackson's. I don't know if Rachael attending that ball means that she's a racist but I don't assume that she can't have feelings for Matt. I'm just going to continue to watch the show and see how it turns out. All JMO.


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