Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[ironcat]

Some great analysis going on here on all sides. I felt like I opened a can of worms with my original post, but hopefully we are all getting more "closure" from this discussion.    

My main reason for commenting originally was because I was really surprised, after the heated debates going on in the spoiled threads between those who thought it was Nick and those who thought it was Josh, with so much "evidence" supporting each side, that when I peeked into the unspoiled thread, there was almost unanimous consensus that it was Josh, taking all the SM, RS input, plane video, etal, out of the equation. I found that to be a fascinating and curious phenomenon, and there's got to be some psychological significance to why having seemingly MORE information misled many of us on the spoiled side. I love that we are exploring that.  

As an aside, I sent my first post from my phone, where I can't (or don't know how   ) to quote or edit, resulting in sometimes not presenting things exactly how I mean to, so maybe I should stop doing that. Live and learn.  :winkie: 

[soccermom333]

I also just wanted to add since we're on the topic of clues that the biggest one, when you take away RS' spoiler, the videos, the snapchat and clues by the Murray's and Josh and Andi, the biggest one was that Andi never really left Atlanta.

We had either pictures and tweets that confirmed at least every other day that she was in Atlanta. When she did leave, which was only a few times, we had proof they were for media/promotion and then one other time was to visit her grandmother, which we also got pictures and tweets of. Andi was in Atlanta for basically the whole entire season.

From what I gathered through Nick's SM, he was almost always in Chicago or Milwaukee. That right there should have been a sign considering when they heck would they have had safe house visits?!

Nick favorited a quote that Andi should be punched in the face. That was the-  "Sorry. No. This wasn't the man who loved her. Next," moment for me immediately

    Forgot about that.  That was just plain weird.  He claims he "didn't read" the whole text.  Ya right!     Looking back it is always so easy to see the signs.  


Sorry Mods I edited my post.

[Ash2214]

See for me, Andi chased Josh. The whole entire season. Also, a lot of the things she said about Nick weren't direct, straight to the camera statements. They were VO's.

First impression rose, First guy with 2nd one on one date in Venice, Mini one on one in Dinant
"I could see him standing at the end" directly to the camera at end of mini one on one in Dinant
Hands all over Nick; leaning in to kiss him, flirty and softer, pulling him in for kisses on beach FD, hands all over his legs in evening, kissing at tree
Secluded Beach Date vs. city date for Josh in DR
"Makes me feel like a woman, the way he kisses me, I’ve never felt this way" to her sister at MTA
etc, etc, etc.....

Right, because the lead has complete and total control on who gets the dates.

Nick chased her. A big example of that is sneaking out to see her. Andi didn't ask him to do that. She was physically attracted to a lot of guys. Like Marcus for example. She was all over him in Belgium and they had a steamy make out against the wall and she was all over him. She sent him home in the next episode.

She was constantly looking for Josh to proclaim his feelings. She had a break down during the lie detector test because she was terrified he was going to leave or didn't have feelings for her. She cried like a huge baby over Josh and their little argument. Throughout the whole season she would state that she knew how she felt about him, but was terrified that he didn't feel the same and that he would end up breaking her heart. She chased him until the end. She was lucky enough he out up with some of her nonsense too.

[ironcat]

See for me, Andi chased Josh. The whole entire season. Also, a lot of the things she said about Nick weren't direct, straight to the camera statements. They were VO's.

First impression rose, First guy with 2nd one on one date in Venice, Mini one on one in Dinant
"I could see him standing at the end" directly to the camera at end of mini one on one in Dinant
Hands all over Nick; leaning in to kiss him, flirty and softer, pulling him in for kisses on beach FD, hands all over his legs in evening, kissing at tree
Secluded Beach Date vs. city date for Josh in DR
"Makes me feel like a woman, the way he kisses me, I’ve never felt this way" to her sister at MTA
etc, etc, etc.....

Right, because the lead has complete and total control on who gets the dates.

Nick chased her. A big example of that is sneaking out to see her. Andi didn't ask him to do that. She was physically attracted to a lot of guys. Like Marcus for example. She was all over him in Belgium and they had a steamy make out against the wall and she was all over him. She sent him home in the next episode.

She was constantly looking for Josh to proclaim his feelings. She had a break down during the lie detector test because she was terrified he was going to leave or didn't have feelings for her. She cried like a huge baby over Josh and their little argument. Throughout the whole season she would state that she knew how she felt about him, but was terrified that he didn't feel the same and that he would end up breaking her heart. She chased him until the end. She was lucky enough he out up with some of her nonsense too.

I suspect that from the beginning, Andi told producers she only felt there was a possibility with 2 guys: Josh, because he was her fantasy come to life, and Nick, because she had a very unexpected but intriguing mental connection with him right off the bat that she had never experience before. (Additionally, she was VERY attracted physically to Marcus, but I think she realized right away that they weren't a good match in any other area.) Working with that, the producers would have known that they needed to "push" Nick on her a bit, especially if, as I think chloe reported, he was very skeptical from the beginning. Thus, giving him the FIR, an early date, extra time, the first 2nd 1 on 1, all helped convince him he was Andi's favorite, and not to be so skeptical. (They also managed to keep him off of all of Josh's GDs but one; coincidence? I think not.) Boy, it couldn't have worked out better from the producers' perspective, although for Nick, not so much.

Although it never used to happen, they are starting to establish a pattern of the lead's favorite, and ultimate F1, getting a date in episode 5. I think the producers convince the lead to wait for that date, using the lure of the exotic travel, and being able to have their first date with that person be more "memorable" as a result of the location. I suspect that's what happened this season.

[Alanna]

First impression rose, First guy with 2nd one on one date in Venice, Mini one on one in Dinant
"I could see him standing at the end" directly to the camera at end of mini one on one in Dinant
Hands all over Nick; leaning in to kiss him, flirty and softer, pulling him in for kisses on beach FD, hands all over his legs in evening, kissing at tree
Secluded Beach Date vs. city date for Josh in DR
"Makes me feel like a woman, the way he kisses me, I’ve never felt this way" to her sister at MTA
etc, etc, etc.....

Right, because the lead has complete and total control on who gets the dates.

Nick chased her. A big example of that is sneaking out to see her. Andi didn't ask him to do that. She was physically attracted to a lot of guys. Like Marcus for example. She was all over him in Belgium and they had a steamy make out against the wall and she was all over him. She sent him home in the next episode.

She was constantly looking for Josh to proclaim his feelings. She had a break down during the lie detector test because she was terrified he was going to leave or didn't have feelings for her. She cried like a huge baby over Josh and their little argument. Throughout the whole season she would state that she knew how she felt about him, but was terrified that he didn't feel the same and that he would end up breaking her heart. She chased him until the end. She was lucky enough he out up with some of her nonsense too.

I suspect that from the beginning, Andi told producers she only felt there was a possibility with 2 guys: Josh, because he was her fantasy come to life, and Nick, because she had a very unexpected but intriguing mental connection with him right off the bat that she had never experience before. (Additionally, she was VERY attracted physically to Marcus, but I think she realized right away that they weren't a good match in any other area.)  Working with that, the producers would have known that they needed to "push" Nick on her a bit, especially if, as I think chloe reported, he was very skeptical from the beginning.  Thus, giving him the FIR, an early date, extra time, the first 2nd 1 on 1, all helped convince him he was Andi's favorite, and not to be so skeptical. (They also managed to keep him off of all of Josh's GDs but one; coincidence?  I think not.)  Boy, it couldn't have worked out better from the producers' perspective, although for Nick, not so much.

Although it never used to happen, they are starting to establish a pattern of the lead's favorite, and ultimate F1, getting a date in episode 5.  I think the producers convince the lead to wait for that date, using the lure of the exotic travel, and being able to have their first date with that person be more "memorable" as a result of the location.   I suspect that's what happened this season.

Andi said she wanted to make Josh wait for his date and work for her She is SO lucky he was so patient with her. Her craziness and over-analysis over him was so different than with Nick. The one time she tried to ADA it out with Josh, she turned herself into a crying mess immediately the moment he pushed back. When she did the same to Nick, he was the one telling her he's sorry he was salty or whatever. Just no comparison imo.

[happygolucky]

So ... reading all of your posts ... we go back to the original idea?

That Andi knew all along who she would choose.

Funny ...
since I actually agree with you.

Tho' that is a bit contradictory with what has been written recently.

[Cecilia]

I agree that it seemed pretty clear that Andi wanted Josh from the get-go, thought he was too good to be true, and Nick was number 2.  I was spoiled before the first episode, and slowly became a Nick fan (picked Marcus out initially).  I never doubted the spoilers.  When watching the Bachelorette I pick a guy who I would want to choose and then root for that guy.  I understand that this does not mean he would have been the best choice for Andi, or that they would make the best couple.  I guess what I found interesting this season is how totally and completely played Nick was.  Now was that his ego? did he miss signals? or read too much into others?  I think as an initial analytical skeptic who surprised himself in actually developing what he thought were real feelings for Andi, he was then completely played by the producers and Andi.  And that's why I feel bad for him and cut him slack.  I think Josh is a really nice guy.  I don't feel the same way about Andi.

I think Nick feeling played and used by Andi led to what happened at the ATFR.  And I don't think either Nick or Andi handled their break-up well.  I do think Andi seemed to be thinking post show - Nick knew what he was getting into so he should just deal and felt he was more of an annoyance, which isn't very compassionate, considering everyone who goes on this show has said - you don't really know what it will be like and how real the feelings can be until you actually do it.  But I do think all of this came from Nick being unbelievably hurt and hurt people don't always make the best decisions.

[Cecilia]

I tend to think there's enough rose colored glasses to go around on all sides. There's always plenty of rewriting history on the part of the lead to fit who they end up with. The only time we hear the truth is post break up.  At this point it doesn't really matter because the season has ended. I'm ready to move on and mostly have already. It looks like Nick is doing nicely as are the other guys from the season so all's good.  :Nod:

Yes! Me too ... and then I pop onto this thread and sometimes just can't help myself.

Nick seems just fine and he's as witty as ever on SM and sexy handsome as ever on IG. Who knew "nerds" could be so hot?!

Nick is so not a nerd.

[Alanna]

So ... reading all of your posts ... we go back to the original idea?

That Andi knew all along who she would choose.

Funny ...
since I actually agree with you.

Tho' that is a bit contradictory with what has been written recently.

Andi's behavior over Josh said that's who she wanted all along imo, but she said post-show that she couldn't consciously understand her feelings for him (admit it was love) until the morning of the frc. It's up to each individual whether or not you believe her. I believe her but that's just me.

[soccermom333]

So ... reading all of your posts ... we go back to the original idea?

That Andi knew all along who she would choose.

Funny ...
since I actually agree with you.

Tho' that is a bit contradictory with what has been written recently.

Andi's behavior over Josh said that's who she wanted all along imo, but she said post-show that she couldn't consciously understand her feelings for him (admit it was love) until the morning of the frc. It's up to each individual whether or not you believe her. I believe her but that's just me.

I agree. She might have known he was the one or wanted him to be the one, just had to go through a lot of thought processing (over analyzing) to finally let her wall down and realize it was love.

Obviously she is over the moon happy with her decision. Her "process" worked for her.

[ironcat]

So ... reading all of your posts ... we go back to the original idea?

That Andi knew all along who she would choose.

Funny ...
since I actually agree with you.

Tho' that is a bit contradictory with what has been written recently.

Andi's behavior over Josh said that's who she wanted all along imo, but she said post-show that she couldn't consciously understand her feelings for him (admit it was love) until the morning of the frc. It's up to each individual whether or not you believe her. I believe her but that's just me.

I agree, no contradiction for me either. She was interested in both Josh and Nick and nobody else, she didn't allow herself to admit/consider that she was in love with Josh (and the producers no doubt were encouraging her along this line as well) until they had their FD and she could no longer deny it to herself. That's why many of us think that if Josh had the first FD, she wouldn't have slept with Nick (and maybe why the producers scheduled his date last). Of course, there are people on another thread who believe that "nympho" Andi would have slept with Chris as well if the producers didn't make her send him home early to protect his reputation. So we're all entitled to believe what we choose about these people.

[Lucas15]

I was really surprised, after the heated debates going on in the spoiled threads between those who thought it was Nick and those who thought it was Josh, with so much "evidence" supporting each side, that when I peeked into the unspoiled thread, there was almost unanimous consensus that it was Josh, taking all the SM, RS input, plane video, etal, out of the equation.  I found that to be a fascinating and curious phenomenon, and there's got to be some psychological significance to why having seemingly MORE information misled many of us on the spoiled side.  I love that we are exploring that.  

I largely ignored the unspoiled forums myself because I was afraid I'd slip and post a "you're so wrong" type implication and spoil them and also I (very unfairly as it turns out) didn't expect them to be dealing with the show as I saw it. I was equally stunned to find out when I finally got there that they had ultimately reached a concensus that she had picked Josh and that the reasons I could see posted were the same reasons I saw supporting the spoiler. Your observation (bolded) is one of the more fascinating questions and perhaps doesn't have only a single answer.

One issue that may be a factor is a near universal hatred (OK strong word) of RS. So many posters want so badly to see him wrong I wonder if they root for the contrary / alternative position more because that would make him wrong - again - than because they really see the alternative as likely.

Another is that many of us want to see the underdog in any contest win so we root for the underdog. If you're spoiled that defines who the underdog might be, but if you're not spoiled you can't root for the underdog because you don't know who it is.

ETA
And yet another may be that there might have been a shared objective of the unspoiled forums. For example to figure out who Andi would pick before her choice was aired. I see a number of posts made where people select who to root for not based on who they think would win but who they "like" and sometimes even not who they like for the lead. Those are two very different goals that may explain different results.

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