Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[GuardianAngel]

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Mia! We posted at the same time! My post above you is somehow my answer to you. In Real Life, I wouldn't even go near a "Fantasy Suite" whether literally or figuratively. So if we will discuss Sex, our preferences, our habits in Real Life? The Bachelor/Bachelorette is not the Biblical pattern of our moral lives.

However, in the Bachelor Bubble, THE Fantasy Suite is a metaphor. Almost everyone if not all who joins and watches the show have an unspoken understanding what The Fantasy Suite represents. The "invitation card" read before that "date" imply Sex happens It is more a rule than an exception, whether your mind is in the gutter or not.

We cannot, imo, impose our moral values in Real Life to those who choose to "use" it or not. We cannot use our very own personal principles as a baseball bat to hit those who join the show. Because that is not Real Life.

As one of those famous writers live tweeted, there is a general understanding what happens in the Fantasy Suite except it is the first time that someone explicitly states what exactly happens. Resulting to the sl**-shaming effect. And imo again, it is nota question of whether it was a female or male who got the brunt of that effect. Using our Real life values as a yardstick in watching a reality TV like The Bachelor and Bachelorette is not only futile but also utterly frustrating. imo, of course.

[GuardianAngel]

MiaHawk ... Man, if I had the day to give up, I would surely want to chat with you as you raise some interesting points that really elevates the discussion. Thanks for your thoughts.

WastingMyTime ... Great post. I share your POV.

Brittany ... Good question. I have not read the letter retweeted by Kelly so can't respond to that. I actually have more of an issue of Nick's tweets about Marcus during BIP than I do with the fact that he followed some guy from Atlanta who baited the Murrays and their fans on Twitter.

Bad Nick, Bad Nick! NOT!

But seriously, I have a soft spot for Marcus and view Nick as being older, wiser and more emotionally mature of the two. I wish both guys would just turn the other cheek and move on. It's a small, small, small world and BachNation is clearly even smaller as evidence by this Twitter exchange between Nick & Sean (funny stuff! I knew there was a reason why I liked both guys) ...

Sean Lowe ‏@SeanLowe09 · Aug 7
Here it is! Why did Nick bring up the #FantasySuites in that awkward #AfterFinalRose? Here's why: http://ow.ly/A4i5H @viallnicholas28

Nicholas Viall @viallnicholas28 · Aug 7
Always said nice things about me AND extends me the opportunity to share my final thoughts on AFR. Thanks @SeanLowe09 http://ow.ly/A4i5H

Sean Lowe ‏@SeanLowe09 19h
@viallnicholas28 I'm sensing some sarcasm. Well played sir.

Nicholas Viall ‏@viallnicholas28 19h
@SeanLowe09 wait!? "Murdery vibes" isn't a compliment? I'm confused.

[Catdwoman50]

GA, will you also move Mia's post. I just lost my whole reply, don't really think I want to replicate now. Thanks!

[brittany4400]

The thing I like about post show Nick over the others is that he seems a bit more self deprecating. Andi, Josh and Marcus should work on getting their panties out of a wad. I honestly liked Marcus until BIP premiere. He is too wishy washy for me.

[GuardianAngel]

GA, will you also move Mia's post.  I just lost my whole reply, don't really think I want to replicate now.  Thanks!

eek! Didn't the save post work? Go back to thread 6 and see if your reply is still there in the box.

[GuardianAngel]

I'm sure that this post will be seen as too heady by some.  I don't really expect too many replies.  I just want to pose a few questions and thoughts.  Maybe some of you will think about these things privately instead of posting.

I don't really want to focus on Nick/Andi's situation because it is a bizarre reality tv situation, but I prefer to think of these things in the general terms, in real life terms.

1) I've seen some references made to the fact that alcohol may have influenced N/A's actions in the FS.  If somebody uses alcohol IRL does that excuse their sexual behavior?  My son is entering college this month and is required to complete an online alcohol and sex ed program by his college.  1 in 5 females and 1 in 16 males experience unwanted sexual advances.  Is alcohol a legitimate excuse for some people to explain away their own behavior?  Isn't the decision to drink or not drink also a responsibility?

2) I've seen some references to A's actions like "I wouldn't have had sex with N, but some people view sex differently".  So, in assessing why YOU personally would NOT have had sex, aren't you basing that decision on your own set of moral standards?  Moral standards are beliefs that you hold that can be held up as solid reasons for why you would or would not behave a certain way.  If you use that moral standard to assess that YOU would NOT have had sex (in a similar real world situation), then how can you easily dismiss it as ok for somebody else to do?  Wouldn't you hold that somebody to the same moral standards that you hold yourself?

3) Okay this one IS about A/N specifically:  If consensual sex (meaning not forced physically) between two adults is LEGAL, does it necessarily mean that it is MORAL?  For example, statutory rape is considered illegal and immoral because there is an assumed mismatch of power/understanding between the adult and child.  The child can be coerced into thinking sex is a good idea by the older, more powerful adult, thus the adult is seen to be taking advantage of the minor.  It is a legal requirement for certain professions to be mandatory reporters of such sexual intercourse.  The same sort of thing can be considered sexual harassment at work.  If a powerful boss makes advances on a subservient worker it could be seen as manipulation and intimidation. While not illegal from a consensual standpoint, it could be covered by the newer sexual harassment laws. While, it is a stretch, do you think any of these concepts apply to A/N's situation?  What there an imbalance of power? Was there an element of intimidation?

4)  The biggest problem I see with sex in our society is that it is becoming more and more common for it to be thought of as nothing truly special.  It's just an act of physical enjoyment regardless of the feelings, love, commitment level between the two participants.  While it can be explained away as being acceptable IF the two people are 'on the same page' emotionally, are people truly being honest with one another? Are they putting their cards on the table about how they really feel before having sex? Can two people be on the same page emotionally before and after sex?  

5)  Are we as a society still treating are sons differently than our daughters? Or are we now lowering the expectations of our daughters to that of our sons?  Boys will be boys, sow his wild oats, etc have long been acceptable norms for men. Instead of lowering our standards for our daughters, shouldn't we be raising those old standards for our sons?  Does this simply have to do with pregnancy? Boys can't get pregnant, so go have your fun.  Now, with contraception our daughters can go have the same amount of fun?  Have we always as a society had a liberal view of sex? Has it changed since the 60s?  Are we better of or worse for it? As a society and as individual has increased sexual freedom improved the quality of our lives or has it made for more messy complications?

6)  What exactly is a sl**?  What exactly is a man whore? And if you live by a certain moral standard and can defend your actions, then how can someone else shame you? Privately or publicly?  If you cannot justify your actions using a personal code of ethics, then does that point to the fact that you are doing something that you shouldn't be doing?  I've taken ethics courses.  I've had to defend a stance using moral standards.  It's harder than you think. It often makes you question some of the assumptions you've held, the influences that society or the media has had over you, the beliefs that you've held.  Because when you're literally asked to put down in writing what you think and why you think it, you often find that there are contradictions within yourself.

So, I challenge anyone here who is interested to think about some of these questions in terms of common moral standards.  If not, then no problem either.  Peace.      

[Catdwoman50]

No worries GA.  I had to pen my thoughts otherwise it will bug me.

Mia - On #6 if I may:

I was actually thinking about the word "sl**" this morning and realized that similar to whore it is terminology (derogatory) used for females describing those who are sexually promiscuous.  However, I believe that the meaning of the word promiscuity is different from person to person.  The degree of negativity applied to the word depends on our individual cultural makeup.  For example, I don't define Andi as a sl** because I don't believe her actions warrant the label (but then again I have feministic tendencies).  So my moral code of standard is different from those who call her that or those who believe she is.  

So to get back to your questions, yes, I too sometimes tend to hold others to the moral code of conduct that I hold myself against.  I too first felt that someone sleeping with one while feeling strongly for another is cheating.  However, before I said "cheating" out loud I had to also realize that as individuals our cultural makeup is a product of our beliefs, environment, upbringing, experiences, and current state in life.  Our words, actions, and natural tendencies are influenced by our cultural makeup. And my true definition of the word sl** differs from yours, perhaps; differs from one who lives in LA, or from someone across the globe. Knowing that, I realize I have to be careful with my labels that I can't dictate how someone else should lead his/her life, what he/she should do, what he/she should say - because it is only my words and actions that I can control.

So what I would add to your topic #6 is that acceptance and tolerance is key to living in this age of broader exposure to the rest world and greater differences in standards.  It is only when we realize that our varied points of view are products of our cultural makeups that we begin to exhibit acceptance and tolerance.  Knowing that words and actions mean differently between each of us, we can then accept that we have no power to control others but we have the power to influence (another topic).  If for some reason, we can't accept we can tolerate enough to either ignore an offending view or effectively influence one towards our own beliefs (again another topic in of itself).

Thanks for your post!

[ironcat]

MY post got eaten.     I'll try to recreate.

There are some things the two sides will never agree on.  Some think that Andi callously slept with Nick for the hell of it, or worse, to purposely lead him on further (and if you believe that, her behavior can never be excused or justified). Others, myself included, don't believe this.  IMO, Andi didn't sleep with Nick knowing that she was already in love with and picking Josh, nor did she know that she would never fall in love with Nick, even though she knew she wasn't in love with him at that moment.  She may have even felt that "making love" with him would help hasten the process (obviously, it didn't).  And in this crazy Bachelor World, where the premise is for the lead to not only conduct multiple relationships simultaneously and take them as far as possible in the allotted time frame, but also to not divulge her true feelings to her suitors, this behavior is considered perfectly acceptable, although it most probably would be frowned upon in the real world.

Regarding one of Mia's questions, if I were in Andi's shoes, I wouldn't have slept with 2 guys under the circumstances, but not because I think it's immoral.  I just don't feel comfortable conducting two sexual relationships at the same time.  So it's not always a question of morality, at least not for me.

Also, for me personally, I didn't criticize Nick for the nasty poster who he was following, so my admitting to laughing at the nasty post of Kelly's isn't hypocritical IMO.

Damn, my original post was better.  :giggle:

[Catdwoman50]

MY post got eaten.     I'll try to recreate.

There are some things the two sides will never agree on.  Some think that Andi callously slept with Nick for the hell of it, or worse, to purposely lead him on further (and if you believe that, her behavior can never be excused or justified). Others, myself included, don't believe this.  IMO, Andi didn't sleep with Nick knowing that she was already in love with and picking Josh, nor did she know that she would never fall in love with Nick, even though she knew she wasn't in love with him at that moment.  She may have even felt that "making love" with him would help hasten the process (obviously, it didn't).  And in this crazy Bachelor World, where the premise is for the lead to not only conduct multiple relationships simultaneously and take them as far as possible in the allotted time frame, but also to not divulge her true feelings to her suitors, this behavior is considered perfectly acceptable, although it most probably would be frowned upon in the real world.

Regarding one of Mia's questions, if I were in Andi's shoes, I wouldn't have slept with 2 guys under the circumstances, but not because I think it's immoral.  I just don't feel comfortable conducting two sexual relationships at the same time.  So it's not always a question of morality, at least not for me.

Also, for me personally, I didn't criticize Nick for the nasty poster who he was following, so my admitting to laughing at the nasty post of Kelly's isn't hypocritical IMO.

Damn, my original post was better.  :giggle:

I still like it!

[Marybods]

The thing I like about post show Nick over the others is that he seems a bit more self deprecating. Andi, Josh and Marcus should work on getting their panties out of a wad. I honestly liked Marcus until BIP premiere. He is too wishy washy for me.

  

Agreed.  Liked Marcus from his bio, and, in Andis words "he is hot".  But seemed immature as the show went on.  Then his dating history came out...ie his hooking up with that radio show host while he had a gf.  Slept with more than 20 women, before 25 years old..WOW.   The man is gorgeous, guess he takes advantage of it. But to call Nick out on twitter during BiP was going to far.  The whole cast is making fun of themselves, even AshLee told JP she won the crazy award on that episode.  I just don't get  Marcus, maybe it's his age.

I am really a big fan of Nicks.  I understand his need to explain himself on Sean's blog.  He is getting hit by all the media about his actions on ATFR.  maybe this was his way to just get it all out there, and this will be the end of it.  I hope so for Nicks sake bc the more he talks, the more he is getting trashed.

As for Andi, and this has been said by many, will she now be takin seriously as an attorney after?  There is an unfair stigma attached to women who sleep around.  I am by no means calling her out about her choices, but she slept with 3 men on national tv, then acted like a little snot towards 2 of them.  I think of Andi as a diva.  But if Josh and her last, as I believe they will, this will all go away.  They will become the golden couple of this franchise.  I mean ABC is booting poor Chris and Dez's wedding off TV.  What a shame, but I guarantee the golden couple will have an all out wedding televised.

[Cari]

No worries GA.  I had to pen my thoughts otherwise it will bug me.

Mia - On #6 if I may:

I was actually thinking about the word "sl**" this morning and realized that similar to whore it is terminology (derogatory) used for females describing those who are sexually promiscuous.  However, I believe that the meaning of the word promiscuity is different from person to person.  The degree of negativity applied to the word depends on our individual cultural makeup.  For example, I don't define Andi as a sl** because I don't believe her actions warrant the label (but then again I have feministic tendencies).  So my moral code of standard is different from those who call her that or those who believe she is.  

So to get back to your questions, yes, I too sometimes tend to hold others to the moral code of conduct that I hold myself against.  I too first felt that someone sleeping with one while feeling strongly for another is cheating.  However, before I said "cheating" out loud I had to also realize that as individuals our cultural makeup is a product of our beliefs, environment, upbringing, experiences, and current state in life.  Our words, actions, and natural tendencies are influenced by our cultural makeup. And my true definition of the word sl** differs from yours, perhaps; differs from one who lives in LA, or from someone across the globe. Knowing that, I realize I have to be careful with my labels that I can't dictate how someone else should lead his/her life, what he/she should do, what he/she should say - because it is only my words and actions that I can control.

So what I would add to your topic #6 is that acceptance and tolerance is key to living in this age of broader exposure to the rest world and greater differences in standards.  It is only when we realize that our varied points of view are products of our cultural makeups that we begin to exhibit acceptance and tolerance.  Knowing that words and actions mean differently between each of us, we can then accept that we have no power to control others but we have the power to influence (another topic).  If for some reason, we can't accept we can tolerate enough to either ignore an offending view or effectively influence one towards our own beliefs (again another topic in of itself).

Thanks for your post!

That's why im proud to call you, MY FRIEND, Girlfriend!    *i got nosebleed, my friend!   so awesome!

Now i can go to sleep! i was just waiting for your post. Worth the wait, my love!

[Catdwoman50]

No worries GA.  I had to pen my thoughts otherwise it will bug me.

Mia - On #6 if I may:

I was actually thinking about the word "sl**" this morning and realized that similar to whore it is terminology (derogatory) used for females describing those who are sexually promiscuous.  However, I believe that the meaning of the word promiscuity is different from person to person.  The degree of negativity applied to the word depends on our individual cultural makeup.  For example, I don't define Andi as a sl** because I don't believe her actions warrant the label (but then again I have feministic tendencies).  So my moral code of standard is different from those who call her that or those who believe she is.  

So to get back to your questions, yes, I too sometimes tend to hold others to the moral code of conduct that I hold myself against.  I too first felt that someone sleeping with one while feeling strongly for another is cheating.  However, before I said "cheating" out loud I had to also realize that as individuals our cultural makeup is a product of our beliefs, environment, upbringing, experiences, and current state in life.  Our words, actions, and natural tendencies are influenced by our cultural makeup. And my true definition of the word sl** differs from yours, perhaps; differs from one who lives in LA, or from someone across the globe. Knowing that, I realize I have to be careful with my labels that I can't dictate how someone else should lead his/her life, what he/she should do, what he/she should say - because it is only my words and actions that I can control.

So what I would add to your topic #6 is that acceptance and tolerance is key to living in this age of broader exposure to the rest world and greater differences in standards.  It is only when we realize that our varied points of view are products of our cultural makeups that we begin to exhibit acceptance and tolerance.  Knowing that words and actions mean differently between each of us, we can then accept that we have no power to control others but we have the power to influence (another topic).  If for some reason, we can't accept we can tolerate enough to either ignore an offending view or effectively influence one towards our own beliefs (again another topic in of itself).

Thanks for your post!

That's why im proud to call you, MY FRIEND, Girlfriend!    *i got nosebleed, my friend!   so awesome!

Now i can go to sleep! i was just waiting for your post. Worth the wait, my love!

Cari, you are too much.   

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