Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[isittrue]

At the end of the day some people will see what Nick did as being justified by Andi's demeanor. Others will see what Nick did as not liking the answer he got and attempting to strike back at Andi. This observation on ethics might be food for thought:

The “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse, or “They had it coming”

The mongrel offspring of The Golden Rationalization and the Bible-based dodges a bit farther down the list, the “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse is both a rationalization and a distraction. As a rationalization, it posits the absurd argument that because there is other wrongdoing by others that is similar, as bad or worse than the unethical conduct under examination, the wrongdoer’s conduct shouldn’t be criticized or noticed. As a distraction, the excuse is a pathetic attempt to focus a critic’s attention elsewhere, by shouting, “Never mind me! Why aren’t you going after those guys?”

Its other familiar, equally absurd but even more corrupting manifestation is the “They had it coming” variation. This argues that wrongdoing toward a party isn’t wrong because the aggrieved party doesn’t deserve ethical treatment because of its own misconduct. But the misconduct of a victim never justifies unethical conduct directed against that victim.

Since most people will admit that principles of right and wrong are not determined by polls, those who try to use this fallacy are really admitting misconduct. The simple answer to them is that even assuming they are correct, when more people engage in an action that is admittedly unethical, more harm results. An individual is still responsible for his or her part of the harm. If someone really is making the argument that an action is no longer unethical because so many people do it, then that person is either in dire need of ethical instruction, or an idiot.

I had to come out of lurkdom to address this point. It seems many people think of Andi as the victim due to Nick saying what he did. I'm sure Andi herself thinks she's the victim. However, I and many others think Nick is the victim in this whole scenario, and him saying something he maybe shouldn't have doesn't justify Andi's conduct during and after the season. Nick might have misbehaved, but he's still the victim. Andi did all in her power (she's not allowed to say "I love you" to anyone, so not saying it is no excuse) to encourage Nick's feelings towards her, even said "I wish I could say things back" to him and went as far as sleeping with him, despite having stronger feelings for Josh. Being scared Josh might leave, even after him giving her those ten roses and talking about proposing, doesn't really excuse playing with Nick's feelings to that extent. And even if it did, treating him like a homeless person asking for change at the side of the road, instead of a man she was considering spending the rest of her life with, makes her seem very immature and bratty. I think she started thinking of herself as the victim the moment Nick accused her of taking things too far, because walking away from his hotel her body language said "Whatever, I'm over it, I'll just focus on Josh now". And that's how she's been ever since. Well guess what Andi, if it's part of your "job" to break someone's heart, then it's also part of your job to face them at ATFR. She had all the time in the world to prepare for that. She even knew what was on his mind still, because he wrote her that letter. Yet she acted like talking to him was a total nuisance and she'd rather just gush about Josh and their eternal love. And I'm not just reading too much into her demeanor, she herself has said in several interviews, the radio thing the other day included, that they were over it all two months ago and thought there was no point rehashing anything. That's just incredibly self-absorbed IMO. Just because she and Josh were over it and happy in love, doesn't mean Nick was as lucky. While they were reliving their love story week after week, Nick was reliving his heartbreak and wondering if he'd imagined everything. The least she could do is show a bit of compassion for him and give him some honest answers. Yet getting any sort of emotion out of her was like pulling teeth out. Then she said she was never in love with Nick and implied he should have known since she didn't say it, as if she was even allowed to. She also said that if she had to do it all over again, she'd still have the same "great" relationship with Nick, as if there's nothing she did wrong or should've done differently. I can totally understand Nick thinking at that point that she had no regard for his feelings, because it really was all about her and her feelings. That's what he voiced with the unfortunate question. His bafflement over how cavalier she was with his feelings. I'm sure her selfishness was a shock to him, because it was to me too. And I really tried liking her all season long, even sided with her on the Eric thing, though the talk with CH after made me uncomfortable, because it was also all about her instead of the man who died.

But her misconduct didn't end at the ATFR. In the interviews that followed she basically scoffed at Nick all "whatever, he's a jerk, we're so over it". Then she favoured several nasty tweets about him, one even saying he was just acting, which she would have to be willfully blind to think. Even after everything, she still didn't even try to see things from his point of view. Not a single thought was given to the possibility that she might've have lead him on a bit too much. Oh no, Andi does NO WRONG. Nick is a bad guy, who showed his true colours by embarrassing poor innocent Andi. Which still begs the question "If there was nothing wrong with Andi having sex with Nick and it was even expected, then why is it a crime to mention it?". I'm still not clear on what the answer to that is, except "That's just not something polite men do". Yeah, so maybe it wasn't polite, but it's hardly a crime, especially considering the circumstances. Even if no one besides Nick knew she had sex with him, it doesn't change the fact that she did, so if someone thinks that makes her a sl** then it's got nothing to do with Nick. IMO, it was clearly not Nick's intention to shame her, he just posed a valid question in the heat of the moment. However, aside from hoping she'd been more careful with his heart (which is a valid criticism), he's had nothing but nice things to say about Andi and Josh post-show and he's wished them all the happiness in the world. Compare that to Andi and Josh acting like Nick is scum they just want to brush under the carpet. Who do you think is more mature? That radio interview really didn't make me any more sympathetic towards them. The female host kept calling Nick "creepy Nick" and they were still of the opinion that he should've remained forgotten, since they're over him and so happy now. Damn Nick for still existing and having feelings after he was dumped. And Andi making some comment about Josh bashing Nick's skull in, had he been in contact with him at ATFR? Yeah, violence is so funny! If you're in high school.  

I wonder what blogs Andi was referring to when she said she cried her eyes out over the comments. Sharleen's blog? I sure hope not, because even though 90% of the comments there were pro-Nick, no one was bashing Andi. All the commentators raised valid points in a respectful manner. If that made Andi cry then that was a cry she needed. We all need to learn to deal with constructive criticism at some point in our lives. Not sure about the comments on Sean's blog, since I didn't read those. I can understand being upset by the nasty name-calling on Twitter and such, but a confident person would realize it says more about the people doing it than it does about you. I really hope she doesn't lump everyone defending Nick in the same 'I don't care what they say, they're idiots' category.

Welcome mindless! You make some great points in your post!

[stuckinsc]

mindless, I love your post.  Nick has been nothing but nice post show, except for one question. 

I didn't listen to that interview, but is sounds like Josh and Andi are both still acting like everything is Nick's fault and poor Andi for people criticizing her.  If that is true, then I am finished with them both.  

Since this is the Nick thread and we are almost 3 weeks since the AFTR and at least a week since the last time even mentioned Andi, can we move on to discussion of Nick without the couple?  The discussion isn't changing anyone's mind.

I will be happy to continue to discuss Josh and Andi in their thread, but since they act as if Nick doesn't exist, maybe we can act as if they don't exist in Nick's thread.

[isittrue]

mindless, I love your post.  Nick has been nothing but nice post show, except for one question. 

I didn't listen to that interview, but is sounds like Josh and Andi are both still acting like everything is Nick's fault and poor Andi for people criticizing her.  If that is true, then I am finished with them both.  

Since this is the Nick thread and we are almost 3 weeks since the AFTR and at least a week since the last time even mentioned Andi, can we move on to discussion of Nick without the couple?  The discussion isn't changing anyone's mind.

I will be happy to continue to discuss Josh and Andi in their thread, but since they act as if Nick doesn't exist, maybe we can act as if they don't exist in Nick's thread.

  

[luvlady345]

 I just love how everything St. Nick say is taking as gossip, even the video he said that Josh would do everything that Andi wants, an people took that and ran with it, and low and behold Josh was one of the only ones that gave Andi some push back....  Unlike Nick when Andi confronted him, he said she was right and he was wrong.....  He also put words in Andi's mouth in his PI like he knows Andi feels this way or that way, the rose means she loves me......  

[Alanna]

 I just love how everything St. Nick say is taking as gossip, even the video he said that Josh would do everything that Andi wants, an people took that and ran with it, and low and behold Josh was one of the only ones that gave Andi some push back....  Unlike Nick when Andi confronted him, he said she was right and he was wrong.....  He also put words in Andi's mouth in his PI like he knows Andi feels this way or that way, the rose means she loves me......  

May I request we stop using Santa's name in vain??  :cutesmile!: :cutesmile!: 

Haha I love it! Nick is clueless about who Andi was, who Josh was, and what was going on. I felt for him, despite everything he said about the other guys all season and the video, but yeah, letting the sex talk slip out was the final straw

[sdmom]

MINDLESS,   

Say all we want about Nick. He's moving on nicely. His last interview was GMA the Wednesday after ATFR. He only posted on Sean's blog (which , I thin it's safe to assume is per Sean's request) on 8/7, then afterwards, he's not tweeted/retweeted/faved anything related to the Bachelorette, except live tweeting on BIP. I don't think he's interested in TB. Meanwhile, he's going to an event to support breast cancer tonight.
Is he Saint Nick? I think even his fans will say no, he's flawed, but we still like him, in spite of his shortcomings.

[Kashathediva]

At the end of the day some people will see what Nick did as being justified by Andi's demeanor. Others will see what Nick did as not liking the answer he got and attempting to strike back at Andi. This observation on ethics might be food for thought:

The “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse, or “They had it coming”

The mongrel offspring of The Golden Rationalization and the Bible-based dodges a bit farther down the list, the “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse is both a rationalization and a distraction. As a rationalization, it posits the absurd argument that because there is other wrongdoing by others that is similar, as bad or worse than the unethical conduct under examination, the wrongdoer’s conduct shouldn’t be criticized or noticed. As a distraction, the excuse is a pathetic attempt to focus a critic’s attention elsewhere, by shouting, “Never mind me! Why aren’t you going after those guys?”

Its other familiar, equally absurd but even more corrupting manifestation is the “They had it coming” variation. This argues that wrongdoing toward a party isn’t wrong because the aggrieved party doesn’t deserve ethical treatment because of its own misconduct. But the misconduct of a victim never justifies unethical conduct directed against that victim.

Since most people will admit that principles of right and wrong are not determined by polls, those who try to use this fallacy are really admitting misconduct. The simple answer to them is that even assuming they are correct, when more people engage in an action that is admittedly unethical, more harm results. An individual is still responsible for his or her part of the harm. If someone really is making the argument that an action is no longer unethical because so many people do it, then that person is either in dire need of ethical instruction, or an idiot.

I had to come out of lurkdom to address this point. It seems many people think of Andi as the victim due to Nick saying what he did. I'm sure Andi herself thinks she's the victim. However, I and many others think Nick is the victim in this whole scenario, and him saying something he maybe shouldn't have doesn't justify Andi's conduct during and after the season. Nick might have misbehaved, but he's still the victim. Andi did all in her power (she's not allowed to say "I love you" to anyone, so not saying it is no excuse) to encourage Nick's feelings towards her, even said "I wish I could say things back" to him and went as far as sleeping with him, despite having stronger feelings for Josh. Being scared Josh might leave, even after him giving her those ten roses and talking about proposing, doesn't really excuse playing with Nick's feelings to that extent. And even if it did, treating him like a homeless person asking for change at the side of the road, instead of a man she was considering spending the rest of her life with, makes her seem very immature and bratty. I think she started thinking of herself as the victim the moment Nick accused her of taking things too far, because walking away from his hotel her body language said "Whatever, I'm over it, I'll just focus on Josh now". And that's how she's been ever since. Well guess what Andi, if it's part of your "job" to break someone's heart, then it's also part of your job to face them at ATFR. She had all the time in the world to prepare for that. She even knew what was on his mind still, because he wrote her that letter. Yet she acted like talking to him was a total nuisance and she'd rather just gush about Josh and their eternal love. And I'm not just reading too much into her demeanor, she herself has said in several interviews, the radio thing the other day included, that they were over it all two months ago and thought there was no point rehashing anything. That's just incredibly self-absorbed IMO. Just because she and Josh were over it and happy in love, doesn't mean Nick was as lucky. While they were reliving their love story week after week, Nick was reliving his heartbreak and wondering if he'd imagined everything. The least she could do is show a bit of compassion for him and give him some honest answers. Yet getting any sort of emotion out of her was like pulling teeth out. Then she said she was never in love with Nick and implied he should have known since she didn't say it, as if she was even allowed to. She also said that if she had to do it all over again, she'd still have the same "great" relationship with Nick, as if there's nothing she did wrong or should've done differently. I can totally understand Nick thinking at that point that she had no regard for his feelings, because it really was all about her and her feelings. That's what he voiced with the unfortunate question. His bafflement over how cavalier she was with his feelings. I'm sure her selfishness was a shock to him, because it was to me too. And I really tried liking her all season long, even sided with her on the Eric thing, though the talk with CH after made me uncomfortable, because it was also all about her instead of the man who died.

But her misconduct didn't end at the ATFR. In the interviews that followed she basically scoffed at Nick all "whatever, he's a jerk, we're so over it". Then she favoured several nasty tweets about him, one even saying he was just acting, which she would have to be willfully blind to think. Even after everything, she still didn't even try to see things from his point of view. Not a single thought was given to the possibility that she might've have lead him on a bit too much. Oh no, Andi does NO WRONG. Nick is a bad guy, who showed his true colours by embarrassing poor innocent Andi. Which still begs the question "If there was nothing wrong with Andi having sex with Nick and it was even expected, then why is it a crime to mention it?". I'm still not clear on what the answer to that is, except "That's just not something polite men do". Yeah, so maybe it wasn't polite, but it's hardly a crime, especially considering the circumstances. Even if no one besides Nick knew she had sex with him, it doesn't change the fact that she did, so if someone thinks that makes her a sl** then it's got nothing to do with Nick. IMO, it was clearly not Nick's intention to shame her, he just posed a valid question in the heat of the moment. However, aside from hoping she'd been more careful with his heart (which is a valid criticism), he's had nothing but nice things to say about Andi and Josh post-show and he's wished them all the happiness in the world. Compare that to Andi and Josh acting like Nick is scum they just want to brush under the carpet. Who do you think is more mature? That radio interview really didn't make me any more sympathetic towards them. The female host kept calling Nick "creepy Nick" and they were still of the opinion that he should've remained forgotten, since they're over him and so happy now. Damn Nick for still existing and having feelings after he was dumped. And Andi making some comment about Josh bashing Nick's skull in, had he been in contact with him at ATFR? Yeah, violence is so funny! If you're in high school.  

I wonder what blogs Andi was referring to when she said she cried her eyes out over the comments. Sharleen's blog? I sure hope not, because even though 90% of the comments there were pro-Nick, no one was bashing Andi. All the commentators raised valid points in a respectful manner. If that made Andi cry then that was a cry she needed. We all need to learn to deal with constructive criticism at some point in our lives. Not sure about the comments on Sean's blog, since I didn't read those. I can understand being upset by the nasty name-calling on Twitter and such, but a confident person would realize it says more about the people doing it than it does about you. I really hope she doesn't lump everyone defending Nick in the same 'I don't care what they say, they're idiots' category.

  Mindless.
I am glad you came out of "lurkdom" to post.   

99% of the time, I choose not to read long posts. That's just me.   
However, I did read yours and am glad I did. I agree with almost everything you stated and enjoyed reading it.
Thank you for posting your POV and I hope you will post with us more often.  :Nod: 

[soccermom333]

 I just love how everything St. Nick say is taking as gossip, even the video he said that Josh would do everything that Andi wants, an people took that and ran with it, and low and behold Josh was one of the only ones that gave Andi some push back....  Unlike Nick when Andi confronted him, he said she was right and he was wrong.....  He also put words in Andi's mouth in his PI like he knows Andi feels this way or that way, the rose means she loves me......  

May I request we stop using Santa's name in vain??  :cutesmile!: :cutesmile!: 

Haha I love it! Nick is clueless about who Andi was, who Josh was, and what was going on. I felt for him, despite everything he said about the other guys all season and the video, but yeah, letting the sex talk slip out was the final straw

Nice!   You stated it perfectly.   :cutesmile!:    I will continue to    and defend Andi and Josh and the truth as I see it.  Their interview yesterday confirmed everything for me, and I am sure they are happy to have "Atlanta" on their side.     Nice to see that they have have moved on but I believe it will take the board a little longer. All IMHO

[luvlady345]

I know he is not St. Nick, but it seems everything he said is posted as the very gossip according to Nick, example what he said that happen in the water, is now nothing but the truth...... Oh LAWD let me stop, I promise myself to stop.....

[mindless]

Thank you all for the warm welcome!   I will surely continue posting now that I got around to it.

I know he is not St. Nick, but it seems everything he said is posted as the very gossip according to Nick, example what he said that happen in the water, is now nothing but the truth......  Oh LAWD let me stop, I promise myself to stop.....

Well considering Andi's tendency to throw a tantrum whenever anyone says anything about her that she doesn't want to hear, I have a hard time believing she'd let Nick put words in her mouth. He brought it up while she was dumping him, didn't he? She would've denied it, had it not happened.

[beader]

Welcome, Mindless. I enjoyed reading your post. So many good points.

[luvlady345]

Since u quoted me there are plenty of things I would have said to an about Nick if he would have called me out. It probably wouldn't have been able to be aired they would have immediately cut to commercial so Nick got off very lucky with his manhood intact. Andi was NOTHING but class, to a classless bumbling statement.

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