Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Ash2214]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

If you watched Nick's interviews he stated, in more than one, that he was taken back by her behavior at the ATFR. He wasn't expecting her to be cold to him and he even said that his reaction was that he blurted out they had sex. That is what Nick said. He himself essentially stated that perhaps if she was more warm and kind to him, that never would have "slipped" out.

I don't get what double standard you're talking about. At the end of this whole thing, Nick did and said a lot more questionable things than Josh ever did. Let's face it, no matter the circumstance, whether it's this silly show, another silly show, or in the real world, the person with more questionable things tied to their reputation will be talked about the most. Plain and simple for me.

Like I stated, I said during filming. Not post show. It's pretty clear that during filming, Nick had very few friends.

[stuckinsc]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

If you watched Nick's interviews he stated, in more than one, that he was taken back by her behavior at the ATFR. He wasn't expecting her to be cold to him and he even said that his reaction was that he blurted out they had sex. That is what Nick said. He himself essentially stated that perhaps if she was more warm and kind to him, that never would have "slipped" out.

I don't get what double standard you're talking about. At the end of this whole thing, Nick did and said a lot more questionable things than Josh ever did. Let's face it, no matter the circumstance, whether it's this silly show, another silly show, or in the real world, the person with more questionable things tied to their reputation will be talked about the most. Plain and simple for me.

Like I stated, I said during filming. Not post show. It's pretty clear that during filming, Nick had very few friends.  

What you are quoting to me here is that when surprised by Andi and her claiming she never loved him it slipped out.  Now I get that a lot of you think it didn't slip, Nick himself has never said it was planned.  As you state here, he said it slipped in reaction to her.  Just as he said in the blog that he wrote.  Again, have you ever had someone shock you so much by their behavior that you said something that you might not have normally?  I have, but then again, I am twenty years older than you are, so that might be all my extra opportunities I have had to stick my foot in my mouth.  An example of this is when I asked my former in-laws who I loved very much, how when my ex-husband was remarried six months after our divorce (which only took 2 months) that they could believe he wasn't cheating on me with the woman he married, who was the same woman he asked me to have a threesome with mere months before the divorce.  Trust me, I was embarrassed by myself after that, but my hurt overwhelmed my common sense.

I am saying that if you want to claim that TPTB caused the big problem with the lie detector to manipulate the Josh and Andi issue then maybe a little more credit to Nick being manipulated by TPTB should be given. 

As I have said, during filming we saw JJ and Marquel friends with Nick.  Except for the sitting around and whinning about Nick in episode 7, when during filming did we see that Josh had tons of friends in the house.  We have seen that Chris, Dylan and Marcus were with pics.  Most of the during filming pics or deleted scenes of Josh were alone.  So the friendships we have heard about with Josh are also post filming.

[Ash2214]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

If you watched Nick's interviews he stated, in more than one, that he was taken back by her behavior at the ATFR. He wasn't expecting her to be cold to him and he even said that his reaction was that he blurted out they had sex. That is what Nick said. He himself essentially stated that perhaps if she was more warm and kind to him, that never would have "slipped" out.

I don't get what double standard you're talking about. At the end of this whole thing, Nick did and said a lot more questionable things than Josh ever did. Let's face it, no matter the circumstance, whether it's this silly show, another silly show, or in the real world, the person with more questionable things tied to their reputation will be talked about the most. Plain and simple for me.

Like I stated, I said during filming. Not post show. It's pretty clear that during filming, Nick had very few friends.  

What you are quoting to me here is that when surprised by Andi and her claiming she never loved him it slipped out.  Now I get that a lot of you think it didn't slip, Nick himself has never said it was planned.  As you state here, he said it slipped in reaction to her.  Just as he said in the blog that he wrote.  Again, have you ever had someone shock you so much by their behavior that you said something that you might not have normally?  I have, but then again, I am twenty years older than you are, so that might be all my extra opportunities I have had to stick my foot in my mouth.  An example of this is when I asked my former in-laws who I loved very much, how when my ex-husband was remarried six months after our divorce (which only took 2 months) that they could believe he wasn't cheating on me with the woman he married, who was the same woman he asked me to have a threesome with mere months before the divorce.  Trust me, I was embarrassed by myself after that, but my hurt overwhelmed my common sense.

I am saying that if you want to claim that TPTB caused the big problem with the lie detector to manipulate the Josh and Andi issue then maybe a little more credit to Nick being manipulated by TPTB should be given. 

As I have said, during filming we saw JJ and Marquel friends with Nick.  Except for the sitting around and whinning about Nick in episode 7, when during filming did we see that Josh had tons of friends in the house.  We have seen that Chris, Dylan and Marcus were with pics.  Most of the during filming pics or deleted scenes of Josh were alone.  So the friendships we have heard about with Josh are also post filming.

Regardless of whether he had it planned or not doesn't really matter. Nick himself stated that when Andi acted cold to him his reaction was to say what he did. He might not have had it planned the whole night, but he basically said when Andi came out, sat down in a cold manner, well his reaction was to tell everyone he had sex with her. Plain and simple that's going to be heavily talked about. If Josh did the same thing or said the same arrogant and egotistical things that Nick did, I would bet a good deal of money that people would be saying the same things they are now about Nick and say them about Josh.

[stuckinsc]

Again, it is my experience that makes me understand that what Nick did could be in the heat of passion.  As Andi the lawyer can tell you that is actually a viable defense in a court of law. 

I understand that some find Nick arrogant and egotistical like I find Andi petulant and bratty.  To each their own.

I just try to be fair when I can.  I was fair to Andi all season.  I gave her credit that I thought she probably wanted to let go of Eric before the fight and it was hard for her to deal with someone who wasn't going to be happy playing the game, when she knew he wasn't the one for her.

I have even stated that I have no problem with Andi having sex with Nick.  I do believe she had feelings for him too at the time.  So I don't mind her doing what she did.

I would like for her to not have minimized it afterward, but don't think she acted with malice toward him or did anything wrong in having sex with him.

I have said that I think Josh is a good fit for Andi.

After Josh's interview, some posters were blaming TPTB tricks for the upsetting lie detector drama.  I can agree, but then if we want to do that then I think it is only fair to give Nick a little benefit of the doubt too.

No one is all good or all bad, but I see a lot of posters who seem to think Nick is all bad.  That bugs me.  He like everyone else is flawed, but he also does lots of good stuff too.  So why not try to see a little positive with the negative.  Like I said I do that for Andi, so I am not asking anything that I don't try to do myself.

[Ash2214]

I don't think Nick is "all bad." I've reiterated more than once that I don't personally know him. I wish him well. He seems like a solid guy and I like that he'll be attending a breast cancer benefit as well.

I'm simply commenting on some of his words and actions that were said and done on the show. I did think they were arrogant and egotistical. A lot of people, and not just on this board, would agree with that. I've never attacked him as a person, just some of his actions. I strongly agree that no one is perfect, but that doesn't mean people can't comment on their actions and words. Nick was a central figure this season and most of the attention that he had was in a negative light. It's difficult for people to not talk about that. In the real world, heavy topics of conversations are those those topics that are rather polarizing.

I think for most of us we want to avoid this particular conversation that has been going back and forth since the night of the ATFR, but there are always some posts that drag us back in. Eventually though it will all die down. Thankfully, it does appear that most of us just enjoy back and forth conversation and we can all hope that things work out for Nick, Josh and Andi. I definitely enjoyed the season. I enjoyed seeing Andi and Josh's story and I enjoyed watching Nick too. He might have annoyed me at times and I thought some of the things he would say were ridiculous, but it made me laugh, which I want from this show. Mindless entertainment mixed with some comic relief and some love is always great.

I wish all three of them well.

[Sprite]

   Color me confused but in Andi 's recent mag interview (Jezebel) she stated "I think if Josh wasn't there I would not be engaged right now—I really, truly believe that."  So if that is the case, why did Andi sleep with Nick?  So, if she really didn't see herself ending up with Nick, why make the situation more complicated by sleeping with him?  I have said it before and I will say it again, Andi wanted to eat her cake and have it without really caring about the consequences of her actions, IMHO.

Maybe she didn't come to that realization until after actually experiencing the fantasy suite date with Nick.  Maybe even if there hadn't been a Josh...she wouldn't have gotten engaged to Nick exactly because of their day/night together.  Maybe the time without cameras and yes, sleeping with him, made her realize that he wasn't what she wanted or needed or hoped he would be for her and that in fact, whatever feelings she was feeling for him were not love.  Maybe what she learned from spending private time with Josh had nothing to do with Nick and everything to do with her relationship with Josh.  

Was she acting with the intense description she gave to her sister at MTP? This is my problem, I can't pinpoint when the acting began. Did it start with the FIR? When TPTB start throwing around "once in a lifetime" VO's what are we ever supposed to believe from them again?

There is always a lot of revisionism that happens post show...not only from the people involved to make themselves appear better than they did...but from those watching as well. And a few months down the line, it will happen again if the characters don't live up to expectations. I so remember Emily and Jeff.... I find it rather amusing at times....particularly during my b*tchier moments.   

[Lucas15]

Regardless of whether he had it planned or not doesn't really matter. Nick himself stated that when Andi acted cold to him his reaction was to say what he did. He might not have had it planned the whole night, but he basically said when Andi came out, sat down in a cold manner, well his reaction was to tell everyone he had sex with her.

As explained below no - it really doesn't matter. Nick has explained that he did what he did because Andi was cold to him (or that Andi explained her feelings "in the tidiest of terms" which is how he explained why he did what he did when he wrote his blog) as though that somehow justifies what he did or makes it Andi's "fault".

Somehow over time I think the facts of what happened on the ATFR get muddy. What really happened is:

CH asked Andi "I know you and Nick had a great relationship and you and I talked about that, but did you love him - or parts of him?"

In her answer Andi explains that she was not in love with him and she never said that she was in love with him and was very careful to never say that she was. She says she did have a great relationship with Nick and that she 100% believes that if she had it all to do all over again she would still have a great relationship with Nick. She admits that "it sounds harsh to say but how do you compete with a greater relationship". There was nothing wrong with their relationship but "something else was more right". She said it's tough to say face to face and perhaps she should have said it earlier but at the end of the day "that is the truth".

CH says to Nick "Nick - what are you thinking?"

After CH asked that question it took Nick 52 seconds with several pauses throughout for him to ask the infamous question. Some people will see that as blurted out, others won't.

It does seem like Andi's answer on the ATFR wasn't the first time she explained to Nick that she had found a greater relationship because in his letter to Andi Nick wrote:

That is one thing that has bothered me the most – when you said you know you could have a good life with me, you just don’t think you could have a great one.

At the end of the day some people will see what Nick did as being justified by Andi's demeanor. Others will see what Nick did as not liking the answer he got and attempting to strike back at Andi. This observation on ethics might be food for thought:

The “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse, or “They had it coming”

The mongrel offspring of The Golden Rationalization and the Bible-based dodges a bit farther down the list, the “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse is both a rationalization and a distraction. As a rationalization, it posits the absurd argument that because there is other wrongdoing by others that is similar, as bad or worse than the unethical conduct under examination, the wrongdoer’s conduct shouldn’t be criticized or noticed. As a distraction, the excuse is a pathetic attempt to focus a critic’s attention elsewhere, by shouting, “Never mind me! Why aren’t you going after those guys?”

Its other familiar, equally absurd but even more corrupting manifestation is the “They had it coming” variation. This argues that wrongdoing toward a party isn’t wrong because the aggrieved party doesn’t deserve ethical treatment because of its own misconduct. But the misconduct of a victim never justifies unethical conduct directed against that victim.

Since most people will admit that principles of right and wrong are not determined by polls, those who try to use this fallacy are really admitting misconduct. The simple answer to them is that even assuming they are correct, when more people engage in an action that is admittedly unethical, more harm results. An individual is still responsible for his or her part of the harm. If someone really is making the argument that an action is no longer unethical because so many people do it, then that person is either in dire need of ethical instruction, or an idiot.

Again, it is my experience that makes me understand that what Nick did could be in the heat of passion.  As Andi the lawyer can tell you that is actually a viable defense in a court of law. 

I think that Andi the lawyer (or for that matter any other lawyer) would probably tell you that "the heat of passion" is not a viable defense for committing a crime, it's is an argument that might be used to reduce the penalty for committing a crime. If you plot in advance to kill someone and then actually kill them, it's likely to be charged as first degree murder (willful and premeditated). If you kill someone "the heat of passion" it's probably going to be charged as second degree murder. Either way, it's still murder and it's still a crime and the "heat of passion" isn't a viable defense for committing it.

[Lucas15]

Are some of you saying that Andi doesn't really get to choose who she asks out on a one-on-one or group date? Are some of you saying that TPTB actually tell the lead who he or she is asking out with the date cards?
I had never heard of that.

It's long been my understanding that TPTB make all those decisions. The lead can make requests but TPTB may or may not allow those requests.

Pretty much true dat.

Kasha I know you have posted suspicions about producer manipulation on this season (which I share) and the order of who gets what date and when is just one way they manipulate outcomes for drama. They are masters at listening to the rails to detect an oncoming train and throwing just the right switch to ensure a head-on collision. It's worth pondering how the ending of this season might have been different had Josh's FD been scheduled before Nick's.

[Kashathediva]

I try not to speculate what goes on in people's heads and what ifs.  :shocked!: Dangerous footing. No one will ever really know what was going on in MeandI's head, but her. Same with the cast.

[Emilia23_12]

It's long been my understanding that TPTB make all those decisions. The lead can make requests but TPTB may or may not allow those requests.

Pretty much true dat.

Kasha I know you have posted suspicions about producer manipulation on this season (which I share) and the order of who gets what date and when is just one way they manipulate outcomes for drama. They are masters at listening to the rails to detect an oncoming train and throwing just the right switch to ensure a head-on collision. It's worth pondering how the ending of this season might have been different had Josh's FD been scheduled before Nick's.

Why should the ending been diffrent if Josh had the first FD??? Maybe she never would have had sex with Nick then ...

[Lucas15]

Why should the ending been diffrent if Josh had the first FD??? Maybe she never would have had sex with Nick then ...

As Kasha posted we don't know what would have happened or been different. But a number of posters here (I am one) have taken logical and psychological looks at how Andi could have been thinking in the very last days of filming, and some of us feel that the FD with Josh was when Andi finally acknowledged feelings for Josh that she had had for a long time but she never came to terms with. So if she had acknowledged them earlier than she did, the trajectory of the end could have been different. Your "maybe" is one possibility.

[mindless]

At the end of the day some people will see what Nick did as being justified by Andi's demeanor. Others will see what Nick did as not liking the answer he got and attempting to strike back at Andi. This observation on ethics might be food for thought:

The “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse, or “They had it coming”

The mongrel offspring of The Golden Rationalization and the Bible-based dodges a bit farther down the list, the “They’re Just as Bad” Excuse is both a rationalization and a distraction. As a rationalization, it posits the absurd argument that because there is other wrongdoing by others that is similar, as bad or worse than the unethical conduct under examination, the wrongdoer’s conduct shouldn’t be criticized or noticed. As a distraction, the excuse is a pathetic attempt to focus a critic’s attention elsewhere, by shouting, “Never mind me! Why aren’t you going after those guys?”

Its other familiar, equally absurd but even more corrupting manifestation is the “They had it coming” variation. This argues that wrongdoing toward a party isn’t wrong because the aggrieved party doesn’t deserve ethical treatment because of its own misconduct. But the misconduct of a victim never justifies unethical conduct directed against that victim.

Since most people will admit that principles of right and wrong are not determined by polls, those who try to use this fallacy are really admitting misconduct. The simple answer to them is that even assuming they are correct, when more people engage in an action that is admittedly unethical, more harm results. An individual is still responsible for his or her part of the harm. If someone really is making the argument that an action is no longer unethical because so many people do it, then that person is either in dire need of ethical instruction, or an idiot.

I had to come out of lurkdom to address this point. It seems many people think of Andi as the victim due to Nick saying what he did. I'm sure Andi herself thinks she's the victim. However, I and many others think Nick is the victim in this whole scenario, and him saying something he maybe shouldn't have doesn't justify Andi's conduct during and after the season. Nick might have misbehaved, but he's still the victim. Andi did all in her power (she's not allowed to say "I love you" to anyone, so not saying it is no excuse) to encourage Nick's feelings towards her, even said "I wish I could say things back" to him and went as far as sleeping with him, despite having stronger feelings for Josh. Being scared Josh might leave, even after him giving her those ten roses and talking about proposing, doesn't really excuse playing with Nick's feelings to that extent. And even if it did, treating him like a homeless person asking for change at the side of the road, instead of a man she was considering spending the rest of her life with, makes her seem very immature and bratty. I think she started thinking of herself as the victim the moment Nick accused her of taking things too far, because walking away from his hotel her body language said "Whatever, I'm over it, I'll just focus on Josh now". And that's how she's been ever since. Well guess what Andi, if it's part of your "job" to break someone's heart, then it's also part of your job to face them at ATFR. She had all the time in the world to prepare for that. She even knew what was on his mind still, because he wrote her that letter. Yet she acted like talking to him was a total nuisance and she'd rather just gush about Josh and their eternal love. And I'm not just reading too much into her demeanor, she herself has said in several interviews, the radio thing the other day included, that they were over it all two months ago and thought there was no point rehashing anything. That's just incredibly self-absorbed IMO. Just because she and Josh were over it and happy in love, doesn't mean Nick was as lucky. While they were reliving their love story week after week, Nick was reliving his heartbreak and wondering if he'd imagined everything. The least she could do is show a bit of compassion for him and give him some honest answers. Yet getting any sort of emotion out of her was like pulling teeth out. Then she said she was never in love with Nick and implied he should have known since she didn't say it, as if she was even allowed to. She also said that if she had to do it all over again, she'd still have the same "great" relationship with Nick, as if there's nothing she did wrong or should've done differently. I can totally understand Nick thinking at that point that she had no regard for his feelings, because it really was all about her and her feelings. That's what he voiced with the unfortunate question. His bafflement over how cavalier she was with his feelings. I'm sure her selfishness was a shock to him, because it was to me too. And I really tried liking her all season long, even sided with her on the Eric thing, though the talk with CH after made me uncomfortable, because it was also all about her instead of the man who died.

But her misconduct didn't end at the ATFR. In the interviews that followed she basically scoffed at Nick all "whatever, he's a jerk, we're so over it". Then she favoured several nasty tweets about him, one even saying he was just acting, which she would have to be willfully blind to think. Even after everything, she still didn't even try to see things from his point of view. Not a single thought was given to the possibility that she might've have lead him on a bit too much. Oh no, Andi does NO WRONG. Nick is a bad guy, who showed his true colours by embarrassing poor innocent Andi. Which still begs the question "If there was nothing wrong with Andi having sex with Nick and it was even expected, then why is it a crime to mention it?". I'm still not clear on what the answer to that is, except "That's just not something polite men do". Yeah, so maybe it wasn't polite, but it's hardly a crime, especially considering the circumstances. Even if no one besides Nick knew she had sex with him, it doesn't change the fact that she did, so if someone thinks that makes her a sl** then it's got nothing to do with Nick. IMO, it was clearly not Nick's intention to shame her, he just posed a valid question in the heat of the moment. However, aside from hoping she'd been more careful with his heart (which is a valid criticism), he's had nothing but nice things to say about Andi and Josh post-show and he's wished them all the happiness in the world. Compare that to Andi and Josh acting like Nick is scum they just want to brush under the carpet. Who do you think is more mature? That radio interview really didn't make me any more sympathetic towards them. The female host kept calling Nick "creepy Nick" and they were still of the opinion that he should've remained forgotten, since they're over him and so happy now. Damn Nick for still existing and having feelings after he was dumped. And Andi making some comment about Josh bashing Nick's skull in, had he been in contact with him at ATFR? Yeah, violence is so funny! If you're in high school.  

I wonder what blogs Andi was referring to when she said she cried her eyes out over the comments. Sharleen's blog? I sure hope not, because even though 90% of the comments there were pro-Nick, no one was bashing Andi. All the commentators raised valid points in a respectful manner. If that made Andi cry then that was a cry she needed. We all need to learn to deal with constructive criticism at some point in our lives. Not sure about the comments on Sean's blog, since I didn't read those. I can understand being upset by the nasty name-calling on Twitter and such, but a confident person would realize it says more about the people doing it than it does about you. I really hope she doesn't lump everyone defending Nick in the same 'I don't care what they say, they're idiots' category.

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