Episode 5 - 6/20 - Discussion - Spoilers

richlp wrote:

agentcurls wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

BlondieGal wrote:In reading the board last night many posters thought that there was very little if any chemistry between Ash and Ben F, and I agree. Ashley again pulled away from her kisses with Ben, and I wonder if one kiss was shown twice. Ben F seems a tad bit emotionally immature regarding relationships, although very sweet and kind. He seems like he is at the high school stage of his life with dating. He said that he was stuck in an emotional state after his father passed away, so perhaps that played into it. I don't know, something is off. I have no idea how he got to F2. Perhaps Ashley felt the safest around him in terms of the fantasy suite and last chance date. That is my only guess.

Again, I have absolutely no favorites rather just my observations regarding the show. 8)

Wow! No surprise that I see him so very differently. I think he is actually one of the most mature guys she has. He is in touch with his feelings and able to express them in an intelligent manner. He is going slowly...not good for this show, of course. But really good for a positive real life relationship.

I agree! Ben F is a gem....really, a majority of Ashley's men are.

I don't know about a gem... but he's a sure-fire cure for insomnia...

Awwwww... :shy: So, perhaps his delivery is not that exciting....but what he actually says is not boring to my ears, anyway.

agentcurls wrote:

Alexxxx wrote:
LOL, I really must not be expressing myself well today. I know Ben's dad is deceased -- that was the point of that whole conversation, right? What a great dad Ben had had for 24 solid years and now he's gone, but Ben has taken all the life lessons from that relationship and that prepared him for where he is now? yada yada

No, I'm not saying she's not ready as it pertains to Ben or any one of these guys particularly. I think she's just not ready emotionally for anybody. She needs to process her daddy-loss issues before she's ready to choose a partner. And that's not slamming Ashley. Everybody works out their 'stuff' on their own time schedule. Of the 25 guys there, I don't see what I would call a healthy relationship forming with any of them.

Well, according to what we've been shown in the 2-hour time slot each week thus far...

I think she has built some strong & perhaps healthy relationships but they are still on the cutting-room floor until he!!-Bent leaves.

Ashley strikes me as the type to have been working out her daddy-issues for awhile, she seems introspective enough. What better way to heal from that than to find a wonderful man in her life. I have faith she has. And yes, my rose-colored glasses are firmly set in place.

Alexxxx wrote:

ironcat wrote:

Alexxxx wrote:

jlccaz wrote:Armchair psychology (just because we can)....

Ashley is being presented as a mess -- insecure, erratic, impulsive, obsessive, and walled off emotionally. She does not seem to be having any fun except in a scripted manner (saying what's socially expected about what is romantic, amazing, etc.).

Frankly? She seems to be a younger, female Brad Womack.... with the classic "daddy issues" exhibited by girls who were abandoned by fathers too young -- i.e., being impulsively/compulsively drawn to abusive inappropriate mates. Brad/Ashely's first date at the amusement park "clicked" for them because they could so deeply relate to the shared pain of a father who walked off the job.

As Ben F was describing his terrific father last night, I read (perhaps projected?!) the pain on her face that she DIDN'T have that. You don't see her transitioning to what a terrific mate Ben would make for HER because he had that. She does not seem to have done adequate processing of her own grief/anger/loss and until she is, she isn't ready to "pick" yet.

One could fantasize that the emotional roller coaster / "journey" of filming this dumb show is the equivalent of therapy, but that's not real. Half the dang season has passed, and she is not going to work it out in the next three weeks of filming.

It's funny, when watching that scene last night between Ben and Ashley and the father discussion, I remembered Brad and Chantal and thinking how much Brad needed Chantal's dad in his life. Ashley could use a dad like Ben's in her life, but you're right. She's not ready.

Gotta say I don't really understand why you say Ashley is "not ready"? She is trying to decide how interested she is in Ben, not his father (who btw, since he is sadly deceased, wouldn't be in her life in the flesh even if she chose Ben). I can certainly understand her feeling some personal pain/loss at hearing about anyone who had/has a wonderful relationship with their dad, since she never had that. But I don't see that reaction as evidence that she is running away from Ben because of it, anymore than it should be a reason that she should pursue him because of it. For all we know, many of the other guys have wonderful dads as well.

LOL, I really must not be expressing myself well today. I know Ben's dad is deceased -- that was the point of that whole conversation, right? What a great dad Ben had had for 24 solid years and now he's gone, but Ben has taken all the life lessons from that relationship and that prepared him for where he is now? yada yada

No, I'm not saying she's not ready as it pertains to Ben or any one of these guys particularly. I think she's just not ready emotionally for anybody. She needs to process her daddy-loss issues before she's ready to choose a partner. And that's not slamming Ashley. Everybody works out their 'stuff' on their own time schedule. Of the 25 guys there, I don't see what I would call a healthy relationship forming with any of them.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't think Ashley is alone on this, as many of us have "mommy issues" or "daddy issues" (or other dysfunctional family situations) that continue on for many years, and no doubt they impact our ability to have successful romantic relationships. Should we all try to resolve them before marrying? Probably a good idea, but it would mean there would be a whole lot more single people in the world.

How old is Ben? In the 1-1 he said that he has 24 solid years with his father..but he is 26? I thought his dad passed 4 years go, so how did he get 24 solid years?

ETA never mind he's 28

I see Ben like CL. You can tell she thinks the world of him. But it's like she is trying to sell us on something that is not there.

Ben is very playful and likes to make jokes and say funny things. He needs someone playful *cough* like Shawntel.

Ashley is all business when she's turned on. She wants hands touching all over... grabbing things. Feeling turned on a by a little jealousy and smoldering looks.

Ben F. kisses her and says ruh roh.... lol ... so cute... but not very sexy hehe

BlondieGal wrote:In reading the board last night many posters thought that there was very little if any chemistry between Ash and Ben F, and I agree. Ashley again pulled away from her kisses with Ben, and I wonder if one kiss was shown twice. Ben F seems a tad bit emotionally immature regarding relationships, although very sweet and kind. He seems like he is at the high school stage of his life with dating. He said that he was stuck in an emotional state after his father passed away, so perhaps that played into it. I don't know, something is off. I have no idea how he got to F2. Perhaps Ashley felt the safest around him in terms of the fantasy suite and last chance date. That is my only guess. :greenman:

Again, I have absolutely no favorites rather just my observations regarding the show. 8)

It appears to me that edit reigned supreme last night. Ashley's time with JP was finely sliced and diced. Their time together shows her sitting down in his lap, then the next thing we see is her off to the side with her legs draped over his. The sitting in his lap is cut out. They very much wanted to show Ashley being distant with everyone. The scenes at the fights were edited to not show that Ashley was sitting by JP and talking to him during the fights (as we have seen in SC's). I think that Ashley asked JP who in the house was interested in her and who was not. His answers were chopped up and what we saw was the result, making it seem like he was making a statement about his confidence in his placement. Will had opened up the Pandora's box of Ashley's insecurities by telling her that there were some guys still there for her and some that were not. Who would Ashley ask about that other than the guy she trusts the most and feels the most confident with, JP. His comments about BenF ensured Ben a place in the F2. I think it was probably very iffy up to that point. I don't know if Ashley thought of JP as anything much more than a friend with great kissing at that point. There is a definite attraction there. Her body language with all of the guys was creating distance and closing off, except with JP. I don't think that we got to see them being affectionate last night, because it didn't go with the storyline that her mind is still on Bent-One.

It also appeared that all of the talk with ChrisH was very scripted. So, how much she's still in to Bent at that time, I don't know. I really think she had moved past him at that point, but that wasn't the storyline that they wanted to follow. Ashley said on J Leno that the Bentley episode wasn't going to be what we are expecting. So, it will be interesting to see how this plays out to make the viewers believe that she is ready to move on in her quest for true love.

nd4reality wrote:

ironcat wrote:I could buy that in order to sell the idea that Ashley is still so hung up on Bentley, that she is unable to really feel chemistry with any of the other guys, the producers decided to cut out some of Ben's (and maybe other guys') steamier kisses with her. However, in Ben's case, if he is her F1, I really think it was an editing mistake to do so, because unless something really earth shattering happens next week with him, it is becoming less and less believable that either one fell for the other.

Actually I agree. But not just if Ben turned out to be the F1.

Something earth shattering needs to have happened with any of the remaining guys (JP or whomever). Something that will shake this girl out of her stupor. Yes she has been developing connections with them but if (almost) everyone here is to be believed that JP and she were off and running from episode 1, then she had no business being so pre-occupied when she had her 1 on 1 moment with him. And yeah, she was extremely pre-occupied though her legs were all over him.
A regular slide to the finish line with 1 small bump (Ryan's return) is just not going to cut it.

I guess that's the real question, whether the editors overplayed their hand with the Bentley stuff (and whether they care if ratings remain good) to the point where nobody else is believable as F1. To me, it's clear that JP is the only one who even comes close to being so at this point (which would totally explain the too obvious edit, the physical edit, and every other kind of edit he is getting that usually screams "not F1" to people).

The bottom line in my mind is that whatever Ashley thought her relationship with Bentley was (how much she truly fell vs how much was edited to appear that way), knowing him for 8 days in the controlled environment that is the Bachelor Bubble, IT WAS NOT LOVE or even anything close to it. She herself even admitted last night that what she has now is basically an (unhealthy) obsession with him, that needs to be addressed. I do think that because her feelings for him were always based largely in fantasy, once she gets her "closure" and "snaps out of it", she will be cured, much in the way that you need a fever to break, and then you can move on with full recovery.

nutty1 wrote:

agentcurls wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

BlondieGal wrote:In reading the board last night many posters thought that there was very little if any chemistry between Ash and Ben F, and I agree. Ashley again pulled away from her kisses with Ben, and I wonder if one kiss was shown twice. Ben F seems a tad bit emotionally immature regarding relationships, although very sweet and kind. He seems like he is at the high school stage of his life with dating. He said that he was stuck in an emotional state after his father passed away, so perhaps that played into it. I don't know, something is off. I have no idea how he got to F2. Perhaps Ashley felt the safest around him in terms of the fantasy suite and last chance date. That is my only guess.

Again, I have absolutely no favorites rather just my observations regarding the show. 8)

Wow! No surprise that I see him so very differently. I think he is actually one of the most mature guys she has. He is in touch with his feelings and able to express them in an intelligent manner. He is going slowly...not good for this show, of course. But really good for a positive real life relationship.

I agree! Ben F is a gem....really, a majority of Ashley's men are.

Yea, a lot of them are getting a much better edit than Ashley herself, who has gotten thrown under not one, but a whole fleet of busses!

That's what I am seeing also, I am liking her guys better than I like Ash right now and am more worried about them. This is not right. TPTB have a fleet like you say to throw her under. I understand how she could be feeling, but I was particularly disappointed at how she let Ben C go last night. Cannot get that "cold" Ash out of my mind. She is hurt and frustrated, but her anger etc is so misdirected.

ironcat wrote:

Alexxxx wrote:

ironcat wrote:

Alexxxx wrote:

jlccaz wrote:Armchair psychology (just because we can)....

Ashley is being presented as a mess -- insecure, erratic, impulsive, obsessive, and walled off emotionally. She does not seem to be having any fun except in a scripted manner (saying what's socially expected about what is romantic, amazing, etc.).

Frankly? She seems to be a younger, female Brad Womack.... with the classic "daddy issues" exhibited by girls who were abandoned by fathers too young -- i.e., being impulsively/compulsively drawn to abusive inappropriate mates. Brad/Ashely's first date at the amusement park "clicked" for them because they could so deeply relate to the shared pain of a father who walked off the job.

As Ben F was describing his terrific father last night, I read (perhaps projected?!) the pain on her face that she DIDN'T have that. You don't see her transitioning to what a terrific mate Ben would make for HER because he had that. She does not seem to have done adequate processing of her own grief/anger/loss and until she is, she isn't ready to "pick" yet.

One could fantasize that the emotional roller coaster / "journey" of filming this dumb show is the equivalent of therapy, but that's not real. Half the dang season has passed, and she is not going to work it out in the next three weeks of filming.

It's funny, when watching that scene last night between Ben and Ashley and the father discussion, I remembered Brad and Chantal and thinking how much Brad needed Chantal's dad in his life. Ashley could use a dad like Ben's in her life, but you're right. She's not ready.

Gotta say I don't really understand why you say Ashley is "not ready"? She is trying to decide how interested she is in Ben, not his father (who btw, since he is sadly deceased, wouldn't be in her life in the flesh even if she chose Ben). I can certainly understand her feeling some personal pain/loss at hearing about anyone who had/has a wonderful relationship with their dad, since she never had that. But I don't see that reaction as evidence that she is running away from Ben because of it, anymore than it should be a reason that she should pursue him because of it. For all we know, many of the other guys have wonderful dads as well.

LOL, I really must not be expressing myself well today. I know Ben's dad is deceased -- that was the point of that whole conversation, right? What a great dad Ben had had for 24 solid years and now he's gone, but Ben has taken all the life lessons from that relationship and that prepared him for where he is now? yada yada

No, I'm not saying she's not ready as it pertains to Ben or any one of these guys particularly. I think she's just not ready emotionally for anybody. She needs to process her daddy-loss issues before she's ready to choose a partner. And that's not slamming Ashley. Everybody works out their 'stuff' on their own time schedule. Of the 25 guys there, I don't see what I would call a healthy relationship forming with any of them.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't think Ashley is alone on this, as many of us have "mommy issues" or "daddy issues" (or other dysfunctional family situations) that continue on for many years, and no doubt they impact our ability to have successful romantic relationships. Should we all try to resolve them before marrying? Probably a good idea, but it would mean there would be a whole lot more single people in the world.

I dont think you ever completely work out these issues, perhaps, one learns to deal with them in a more healthy manor. I think Ashley's insecurities are very similar to Brad's and thousands of other people who for whatever reason sabatoge relationships because they read every disagreement as the other person not caring or loving or sticking, or hang onto lousy relationships because they are sure "if they just tried hader." Ashley needs a boyfriend like Ben's father or AshleyS father, who are always there, not one with Ben who crawls into himself for four years to heal. She needs someone who's natural reaction is to move toward the other person, not away (emotionally and physically) when things get tough or there are disagreements. Someone she can trust to always be there.

ironcat wrote: I guess that's the real question, whether the editors overplayed their hand with the Bentley stuff (and whether they care if ratings remain good) to the point where nobody else is believable as F1. To me, it's clear that JP is the only one who even comes close to being so at this point (which would totally explain the too obvious edit, the physical edit, and every other kind of edit he is getting that usually screams "not F1" to people).

.

I believe that's exactly what they want us to believe - that there isn't a F1 - it's not an accident they showed her decending the stairs with the VO about her leaving empty handed - which is in stark contrast to what we know in the real world - same exact thing they did during Brad's season.

pavalygurl wrote:
That's what I am seeing also, I am liking her guys better than I like Ash right now and am more worried about them. This is not right. TPTB have a fleet like you say to throw her under. I understand how she could be feeling, but I was particularly disappointed at how she let Ben C go last night. Cannot get that "cold" Ash out of my mind. She is hurt and frustrated, but her anger etc is so misdirected.

That whole scene as well as the one saying goodbye to William had to be badly chopped and edited. The flow of conversation was so abrupt and not natural. No on really reacts on a dime like that. There had to be more conversation in between. I think it was just edited that way to show that when Ashley is done with something she is really done with it. Just to show us that when she is done with Bentley next week...she is really done with him.

Thinking about Ashley's father issues actually makes it clearer why Bentley was able to develop such a hold on her. In her subconcious, Bentley, and winning Bentley, equates to winning her dad's love. Starting with being warned against him for being a "bad boy", subconciously this only increased her desire to prove herself worthy to him, which she was unable to do with her dad, who was by all accounts also a "bad boy" ("if he loved me more, if I was a better daughter, he would not have abandoned me"). Bentley's physical affection with her was something she craved, probably was deprived of that from her dad as a child. (She loves to be held and petted, wonder why?) Bentley comforts her just like a dad should do when she's sad. Then what does Bentley do but up and leave her suddenly, just like her dad did. Of course, as an added bonus, the reason that "noble" (gag!) Bentley does it, unlike HER dad, is because of his daughter. See, Bentley is a GOOD DAD to boot! No wonder she is so screwed up over him.