The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - General Discussion - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

relaxing wrote:

bluwavz wrote:TPTB has a chance here to show they're not sexist if Ben's FS antics are revealed just like they were for Andi and Kaitlyn. Oh who am I kidding? They'll let Ben get a free pass and probably won't let JoJo say a thing about it at the ATFR. We can't let Ben's perfect image go down the tubes! The male leads are ALWAYS catches and don't you think otherwise. The female leads, you ask? Eh they're disposable and can be tossed aside.

JMO.

  Well said and I so agree.  I'm still surprised that there wasn't outrage about what they did to Kaitlyn.  The gender bias on this show astounds me especially since most fans are women.  So if they are going to throw Ben under the bus a bit for how he handled his F2, that is warranted.  It happens to the women every season.

I think their gender bias is based on what they think their viewers respond to - tptb assumes women enjoy hating other women even when they are friends, and they think we don't want a knight knocked off his horse. The bias they display shows us their opinion of 'we the viewers.' imo.

This show is ridiculously sexist. Fleiss talked about Bob sleeping with 4.5 women on his show with such respect and pride, whereas, the women are always humiliated when sex is brought into the picture (Trista, Jillian, Andi, Kaitlyn). They were willing to give Juan Pablo DWTS, even despite his non-proposal and awful, sexist comments he made to Clare. It was only until the homophobic comments/PR disaster that they took it away from him. Whereas, the women who actually take the show seriously never get an offer. I'll bet that FS activities don't even get brought up with Ben. He'll walk away with mild criticism for the ILY, but people will see how horrible he feels and instantly forgive him and root for him on DWTS. I don't think there's any way they're throwing Sean 2.0 under the bus. JMO.

nothatgirl wrote:This show is ridiculously sexist. Fleiss talked about Bob sleeping with 4.5 women on his show with such respect and pride,  whereas, the women are always humiliated when sex is brought into the picture (Trista, Jillian, Andi, Kaitlyn). They were willing to give Juan Pablo DWTS, even despite his non-proposal and awful, sexist comments he made to Clare. It was only until the homophobic comments/PR disaster that they took it away from him. Whereas, the women who actually take the show seriously never get an offer. I'll bet that FS activities don't even get brought up with Ben. He'll walk away with mild criticism for the ILY, but people will see how horrible he feels and instantly forgive him and root for him on DWTS. I don't think there's any way they're throwing Sean 2.0 under the bus. JMO.

It's already kind of started IMO. In the Reality TV World article, which appears to be based off of the full US Weekly article that is in the magazine IMO, Fleiss and the "insider" defend Ben by saying things such as:

"Sometimes you get those exits and the girls seem sort of relieved. Not this time. There's heavy, heavy heartbreak," Fleiss revealed. "Ben took everything seriously more than any Bachelor we've ever had... [The process] hit Ben really hard.

"He wasn't disingenuous," the insider noted. "Ben does have the capability to love more than one person." Higgins did what he had to do, according to the production source, "but he had to go through hell" and saying goodbye to a bachelorette he truly loved "will leave a scar."
http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/the-bachelor-star-ben-higgins-reportedly-has-fantasy-suite-sex-all-his-final-3-women-19270.php#vq5mOpxLuJBMXTTi.99

So basically because Ben was genuine, fell in love with two women, and will be scarred from having to let one go it makes it all fine and dandy? such a crazy show!

ForeverLove wrote:Didn't know where to post this so hope here is ok. A long interview with CH and thoughts on Ben and evolution of this show. With Amanda's carnival date, they built the carnival and invited the whole town. Not bad
http://www.aol.com/build/519482746/
CH breaks down the last 6 girls and says Jojo is the one who defuses things and "makes things easier". He didn't say much about LB and that he doesn't think Jubilee is emotionally ready to be the next Bette.

CH says "there's definitely some Mesnicks coming up, maybe not a full Mesnick, but a 3/4 easy" as I suspected with all the reference to Mesnick.

Jubilee has issues, she's not ready to be the 'ette.

Talking about the girls left, Amanda young mom, Emily the twin, Becca came back, Lauren B is a flight attending, a great group, very diverse women, of what Ben has narrowed it down to pretty diverse group. Used the word diverse a couple of times. That's their definition of diverse IMO.

He wasn't sure about Becca coming back, at this point, he's just not sure how long she would stay. Out of the other relationships, he see's her connection in a stagnant area. They need to kick it up a knotch. At this point Becca was a wild card, Caila dark horse, they have a very interesting connection. Jojo makes his life easy, at lot to be said for the girl that makes your life easy, in life and on the show, strange that he says under his breath, "Just throwing that out there". She always diffuses things. There's a lot to be said for a women who makes your life easy. Undeniable chemistry between him and Lauren that we haven't seen explode yet.

CH starts talking about they used to control everything, but now they realized they had to grow with SM and we are so savy and smart. They can't pull the wool over our eyes anymore, TB has never been that. They are now just showing really what's happening. For example Rozlyn, they didn't expose her for what really happened, they treated her with kid gloves. Later when she came back and made up her own story, they realized they need to show exactly what happened. The fans what them to show exactly what happened. J/v split was suppose to be just a nice break up, it was a nightmare, they weren't going to show it. They were going to scrap it. Then there was a rumour that Jake made a fist threatened to be violent, so they just showed it. So now that's what they are doing, they will show every thing.

IOW they'll show what they want.

Things have changed in our world, SM, the way we date, everything has changed. No matter how much the show has changed, what's never changed is the end of our show. The last 5 minutes will never change. Love never changes. Very simple. It's a guy and girl looking at each other hoping praying this is the right decision. Taking that leap of faith. A. that will never change in this world. B. We captured it perfectly, MF, didn't add anything, there's no twist. Will always be about love.

He never travelled much, for a kid growing up in Dallas that had no aspiration in this business, this show has given him so much, he's blessed, he's travelled so much, his kids travelled, he's so understanding of what he has, and so appreciative. If he was told to leave, he would take his things and leave, because he's so grateful.

Some of this is paraphrasing and some I typed as I was listening.

Ash2214 wrote:

nothatgirl wrote:This show is ridiculously sexist. Fleiss talked about Bob sleeping with 4.5 women on his show with such respect and pride,  whereas, the women are always humiliated when sex is brought into the picture (Trista, Jillian, Andi, Kaitlyn). They were willing to give Juan Pablo DWTS, even despite his non-proposal and awful, sexist comments he made to Clare. It was only until the homophobic comments/PR disaster that they took it away from him. Whereas, the women who actually take the show seriously never get an offer. I'll bet that FS activities don't even get brought up with Ben. He'll walk away with mild criticism for the ILY, but people will see how horrible he feels and instantly forgive him and root for him on DWTS. I don't think there's any way they're throwing Sean 2.0 under the bus. JMO.

It's already kind of started IMO. In the Reality TV World article, which appears to be based off of the full US Weekly article that is in the magazine IMO, Fleiss and the "insider" defend Ben by saying things such as:

"Sometimes you get those exits and the girls seem sort of relieved. Not this time. There's heavy, heavy heartbreak," Fleiss revealed. "Ben took everything seriously more than any Bachelor we've ever had... [The process] hit Ben really hard.

"He wasn't disingenuous," the insider noted. "Ben does have the capability to love more than one person." Higgins did what he had to do, according to the production source, "but he had to go through hell" and saying goodbye to a bachelorette he truly loved "will leave a scar."
http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/the-bachelor-star-ben-higgins-reportedly-has-fantasy-suite-sex-all-his-final-3-women-19270.php#vq5mOpxLuJBMXTTi.99

So basically because Ben was genuine, fell in love with two women, and will be scarred from having to let one go it makes it all fine and dandy? such a crazy show!

Yup - everything I have seen since filming ending shows Ben scarred - horrible!! :bigsmile:

relaxing wrote:

bluwavz wrote:TPTB has a chance here to show they're not sexist if Ben's FS antics are revealed just like they were for Andi and Kaitlyn. Oh who am I kidding? They'll let Ben get a free pass and probably won't let JoJo say a thing about it at the ATFR. We can't let Ben's perfect image go down the tubes! The male leads are ALWAYS catches and don't you think otherwise. The female leads, you ask? Eh they're disposable and can be tossed aside.

JMO.

  Well said and I so agree.  I'm still surprised that there wasn't outrage about what they did to Kaitlyn.  The gender bias on this show astounds me especially since most fans are women.  So if they are going to throw Ben under the bus a bit for how he handled his F2, that is warranted.  It happens to the women every season.

Great post! TPTB--imo--hate women. Ben and lauren will hopefully recover from all of this. How they handle it in the "real world" remains to be seen. I hope and pray they make it.

I think no matter how well the dates go the producers will do what they want with the edit.
Leading into this episode from the last they are going to show some kind of struggle I am sure, just so that his relationship with Jojo will be more prominent.

Don't forget that "Lauren is different with you than she is with the girls in the house" Ben does not like this. Lauren has been shown to be reserved.

Jojo has been shown as the "peace maker" "voice of reason" overall "good and fun girl" So her date might be more played up.

GuardianAngel wrote:

ForeverLove wrote:Didn't know where to post this so hope here is ok. A long interview with CH and thoughts on Ben and evolution of this show. With Amanda's carnival date, they built the carnival and invited the whole town. Not bad
http://www.aol.com/build/519482746/
CH breaks down the last 6 girls and says Jojo is the one who defuses things and "makes things easier". He didn't say much about LB and that he doesn't think Jubilee is emotionally ready to be the next Bette.

CH says "there's definitely some Mesnicks coming up, maybe not a full Mesnick, but a 3/4 easy" as I suspected with all the reference to Mesnick.

Alas... he probably just means the balcony crying. (Funny, the promo even has him looking over a balcony, but he is simply contemplating and doesn't look upset.)  Ben has been a real Stone Face most of this season, except when he was hiding his face in the alley way after dumping Jubilee in episode 5. You can see quite a time "gap" between that scene and his return to the ladies, when he appeared dry-faced.

He seemed particularly cool and aloof when Lauren was visibly crying in the group scene of this last episode. Then again, he did dump her jealous adversary Leah, so she didn't have much to cry about.

I guess, since Harrison keeps insisting the finale will be different than others, there is still the possibility of a switcheroo (at FRC, not post-show) or some indecisive "I am not sure" business before being confident about his choice.

Jubilee has issues, she's not ready to be the 'ette.

I know Harrison is saying this, but...

This might not be a factor working against her. Yes, there was plenty of talk on the AfterShow about her not comfortable in this environment, but we heard similar talk with previous contestants-turned-leads such as Ashley H. (jealous of Brad in many clips) and Desiree.

She has the full storyline already (orphan background, military story, etc.) and her final words worked alongside Ben's overall theme (a.k.a. "the fear of being unlovable"): "I'm like the most unlovable person in the world right now."

In fact, re-watching episode 5, it struck me that her exit scenes and Ben's reaction to it was very, VERY strange... making me question if she might "boomerang" back later in the season as some contestants do or he may wish to see her again. Only after re-reading many comments here, namely those referencing the US Weekly articles, did I return back to my original "sane" theory that Lauren is still F1 regardless of anything unusual happening in the finale.

They love confusing us with their sloppy editing.

Talking about the girls left, Amanda young mom, Emily the twin, Becca came back, Lauren B is a flight attending, a great group, very diverse women, of what Ben has narrowed it down to pretty diverse group. Used the word diverse a couple of times. That's their definition of diverse IMO.

Different shades of blonde.

He wasn't sure about Becca coming back, at this point, he's just not sure how long she would stay. Out of the other relationships, he see's her connection in a stagnant area. They need to kick it up a knotch. At this point Becca was a wild card, Caila dark horse, they have a very interesting connection. Jojo makes his life easy, at lot to be said for the girl that makes your life easy, in life and on the show, strange that he says under his breath, "Just throwing that out there". She always diffuses things. There's a lot to be said for a women who makes your life easy. Undeniable chemistry between him and Lauren that we haven't seen explode yet.

CH starts talking about they used to control everything, but now they realized they had to grow with SM and we are so savy and smart. They can't pull the wool over our eyes anymore, TB has never been that. They are now just showing really what's happening. For example Rozlyn, they didn't expose her for what really happened, they treated her with kid gloves. Later when she came back and made up her own story, they realized they need to show exactly what happened. The fans what them to show exactly what happened. J/v split was suppose to be just a nice break up, it was a nightmare, they weren't going to show it. They were going to scrap it. Then there was a rumour that Jake made a fist threatened to be violent, so they just showed it. So now that's what they are doing, they will show every thing.

IOW they'll show what they want.

Things have changed in our world, SM, the way we date, everything has changed. No matter how much the show has changed, what's never changed is the end of our show. The last 5 minutes will never change. Love never changes. Very simple. It's a guy and girl looking at each other hoping praying this is the right decision. Taking that leap of faith. A. that will never change in this world. B. We captured it perfectly, MF, didn't add anything, there's no twist. Will always be about love.

He never travelled much, for a kid growing up in Dallas that had no aspiration in this business, this show has given him so much, he's blessed, he's travelled so much, his kids travelled, he's so understanding of what he has, and so appreciative. If he was told to leave, he would take his things and leave, because he's so grateful.

Some of this is paraphrasing and some I typed as I was listening.

Yes... but love works in mysterious ways.

Some seasons I do not buy the storyline. I did think Brooks was a great friend that Desiree felt very comfortable with. Yet they sported scarfs on their necks in their dates (reminding me of Meredith's turtle-necking on every date that didn't involve her F1 Ian), the fireworks scene in Madeira was absolutely ridiculous and she was overly enthusiastic about him in her sessions with Harrison. The fact that Chris Siegfried was pretty much absent in episodes 1 and 2 and there was strange digital "blurring of faces" during their first dance scene in episode 3 clearly indicated to me that she was hardly ignoring him.

I do find the Bachelor seasons more straightforward than the 'ettes though. The guys tend to think more with their heads (both big and "little"... as humorously hinted above) and not so much with their FEELINGS at first. Some like Ben may spend too much time thinking "this girl is one I know has a compatible career to mine and we can work out a post-show relationship better than this other lady" even though he may have stronger feelings for the other. It appears that the 'ettes base their decisions more on emotions and this may be why their batting average is better over all (if you do a percentage of success vs. failure comparing the male and female leads). Also the editors do kookier storylines with the 'ettes in order to hide her sometimes TOO obvious connection with F1.

Tonight's "celebration of love" with the Tanner/Jade wedding and all of the "down memory lane" stuff might be interesting to watch as a "foreshadowing" of Ben's finale... in some way. Sometimes they may select certain clips that resemble what happens with Ben later.

Actually... if Harrison is saying there is a "3/4 Mesnick" here, I am suspecting that my initial "pet speculation" just MIGHT come true after all. He may be ssssoooo indecisive between his top two ladies on that last day that the wrong one arrives first and he either a.) can't say goodbye to her or b.) does says goodbye and then gets upset for doing so. Then the 2nd lady arrives (presumably Jo-Jo) and she gets rejected because the previous one (presumably Lauren) is the one he wants. That's where the phone call comes in.

No... I am not assuming anything here. It is still speculation on my part. We won't know until it all plays out.

However, if Lauren arrives out of a limo first and everybody on this forum gasps, I will just keep my tongue in my cheek...

ForeverLove wrote:Didn't know where to post this so hope here is ok. A long interview with CH and thoughts on Ben and evolution of this show. With Amanda's carnival date, they built the carnival and invited the whole town. Not bad
http://www.aol.com/build/519482746/
CH breaks down the last 6 girls and says Jojo is the one who defuses things and "makes things easier". He didn't say much about LB and that he doesn't think Jubilee is emotionally ready to be the next Bette.

Thanks for posting this @ForeverLove  

Great interview with CH and his insight to the F6 girls going into Epi 7.  Also interesting what he says about the Bette selection process, that it is way too soon, that they do listen to what the fans say and that they do bring all the candidates in to discuss it with them before making the selection.
Lots of good discussion points in this interview.

If Chris says we haven't yet seen the Lauren Ben Chemistry explode... watch out! Can't wait to see that!

dpao84 wrote:If Chris says we haven't yet seen the Lauren Ben Chemistry explode... watch out! Can't wait to see that!

I think they have tons of chemistry, so I can't wait too see it more.