THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

^ Very good and interesting post, Agentcurls. 

As to what you say about Jordan, I noticed the exact same FD scene that you posted the SC of. I even rewatched it on the spot that night to make sure that her reaction wasn't spliced in. I don't believe it was spliced. We also heard Jordan say the exact same words when he talked about his HTD - it was the last thing he needed, the final box to be checked - to which she then mentions him still having to meet her parents and he backtracks and says Oh, yeah, that too.

As a way to understand some of his behaviors, I've been saying that Jordan is immature in the realm of relationships, which I do believe is true. But, you touched upon something else - his being a token narcissist - and that does seem to fit. We heard James T (who admitted to being buddies with Jordan in the house) say that Jordan acted like the 'end all of be alls' and 'entitled'. In other words, Jordan acted conceited and above the rest at times. This could be a personality trait, but it also fits with being narcissistic. 

I can relate to your being in recovery mode over Luke and Chase's eliminations. I have had more than my fair share of recovery mode moments over all these seasons. It is tough to watch a show and get to see glimpses of these people and grow fond of them only to see them hurt or our admiration turn to disillusionment when they turn out to be less than perfect or complete a$$es IRL. I think both Luke and Chase have really good heads on their shoulders, and I do think what didn't kill them will make them stronger in the long run. You can take some comfort in the fact that they both looked really good at MTA and seem to be on the healing path.

^thanks, MiaHawk. I have so enjoyed your thoughts/observations as well this whole season. ( I am really rooting for Robby now as the last great hope for JoJo). I can definitely see what JoJo sees in him.

Such a great post, agent!

 Thanks, Agentcurls. I know that my style of writing can come across as firm and resolute, but I hope that you and everyone else knows that I always respected your opinions and have been able to appreciate all of the men a bit more through your eyes and words about them. I think that Jojo had some really great guys to choose from. 

Here's hoping, fingers crossed, that my Spumoni is gonna have his fountain wish come true!   

Here's a beautiful song about staying true to yourself and never giving up. Enjoy!

 

Agent, you did a great job summarizing this season.

Chase's reaction to his rejection was entirely justified. My heart broke for him. At the same time, JoJo's entitled to change her mind when she knows that it's over. I actually really liked Andi's recent article that explained the double-standard of the Fantasy Suite. So as much as I struggled with watching Chase's pain given his backstory, it also is an experience that women have often with men changing their minds after her emotions are shared.

Congrats, Mia It'll be a stunning season if Robby manages to pull this off. I still think it is Jordan's to lose.

veg_out wrote:Agent, you did a great job summarizing this season.

Chase's reaction to his rejection was entirely justified. My heart broke for him. At the same time, JoJo's entitled to change her mind when she knows that it's over. I actually really liked Andi's recent article that explained the double-standard of the Fantasy Suite. So as much as I struggled with watching Chase's pain given his backstory, it also is an experience that women have often with men changing their minds after her emotions are shared.

Congrats, Mia It'll be a stunning season if Robby manages to pull this off. I still think it is Jordan's to lose.

And lose he will. 

^My only fear with Robby is that he's getting the JoJo treatment: A rapid and intense build-up at the end that's meant to create a two-horse race.

I would love for you to get your happy ending.

veg_out wrote:^My only fear with Robby is that he's getting the JoJo treatment: A rapid and intense build-up at the end that's meant to create a two-horse race.

I would love for you to get your happy ending.

I understand what you are saying. I, however, have seen 'it' with Robby and Jojo from night one. In fact. she flirted with him getting out of the limo saying "Hi, Handsome",  and on and on and on. You've heard me say it all season. Don't worry, I'm not gonna rehash it all.  I believe they were hiding Robby in the edit early on, by taking advantage of all of the drama with Chad.   I'm hoping that Jojo gets her happy ending   and in turn I will get mine. 

I wrote the other day that my head says it's Jordan, but after seeing the SCs from last night's preview, I'm beginning to wonder. I need more time to analyze, but I think Mia might be right that Robby is the one she says ILY to. If she's true to her own experience, she should be saying that only to her F1.

I think one of the reasons that they kept mentioning Ben this season, was to remind us of what happened to Jojo when he said ILY to 2 women.  They played up the fact that Jojo was not going to say ILY to a man until she knew he was the only man during the FDs. She may be having in love feelings for hoth men, hut she is only hoing to choise one man. Therefore, I think whoever she is saying ILY to (with the smile) is the F1 (Robby). In the crying scenes she says "I fell in love with you and I still love you, but what you did to me wasn't right" (if we are to believe that it is one continuous sentence of VO and out of mouth combined and based on the SC sequence I do believe this). I cannot see them hilighting this mantra of Jojo's, to save the ILY for F1, just to turn around and have it jot happen.

I also think that Jojo is probably well liked by producers. She is sweet and fun and represented this series well. I have a difficult time believing that they would edit Jordan so poorly if he was her F1 pick. Even if he does something hortible after the show was filmed. I still cannot see them editing it so that we all think that Jojo picked the jerk. There have been many couples that have stumbled right out of the gate. They put on a brave face, do media, stay together til tptb tell them it is ok to break ip, then they part ways. Why would Jojo's season be any different? Wouldn't they do the usual smoke and mirrors and pretend that they produced a happy and in love couple?

I tend to think that Jordan went along for the free ride this season. He wanted airtime and to travel. He liked Jojo but he never really loved her enough to propose. I think he thought she would cut him in the past few weeks. But she took him to the end, and that probably scared the crap out of him. He does not want to propose. He does not want to break her heart. Yet here he is in the final 2. So, what is he appearing to do now? He is telling her, yes, telling her, he is not ready to get engaged, to tell her father that he will protect her heart, to even give any thought to what there tuture would look like. I am very curious to know what his phone call s all about (woke up this morning and didnt feel right). Does he try to back out of the FRC on the day of FRC? Does he try to sabotage the traditional ending where both men show up, therefore, enraging tptb? Do the pitbull brothers discover something unsavory about him in the 11th hour? Something pissed off tptb enough to edit him this way. Cannot wait to find out what after this season wraps up.

They are rubbing it in our faces: Robby is head over heels in love and wants to marry her, and Jordan is wishy washy, not convinced he wants her forever or can propose, isnt even thinking through the steps of the process (ignoring the fact that he has not even met her family). I cannot imagine that they are going to edit Jojo, a very nice and popular ette, to be the moron who cannot see what we all see. Jojo is smart, asks a lot of questions, is observant. She is keeping a running mental list of all of Jordan's shortcomings, regardless of his lame platitudes and circular logic. I believe she will follow both her heart and her head and choose my Spumoni.

Sorry for all the typos...on the ipad.

Excellent posting @agentcurls

As the season has progressed the more insincere I believe Jordan is. It's like he's playing a role.

I do think she will choose him but I don't think she'll find her HEA with him.

IMO - she sent the two guys home this week who she could have had a real shot at having a successful and loving relationship with. My heart just broke for Luke and Chase - they have very real and genuine feelings for her and I'm just not sure that Jordan and Robby do.

I'm sorry @MiaHawk but I'm struggling to get behind Robby - it might be that I felt he said he loved her too quickly - I think he is well and truly in the "Bachelor bubble" and when RL sets in he might find they are not as well suited as he thought.

This is the problem that I have with these shows - they never sit down together and have real conversations of the practicalities of life after the show finishes.

I also thought the MTA was hilarious. Very few of the guys came across that well - most acted like idiots and I was so pleased JoJo got rid of them. Notable exceptions were Luke, Chase, James and I can't think of who else. And as for Chad going on BIP - well that's a disaster waiting to happen. Not sure if I have the energy to watch that train wreck!

Based on previews, screen caps, sleuthing, and sheer gut instinct I was not in the least bit surprised that Luke went out at F4 and Chase at F3. Unhappy, but not surprised.

Here are my impressions of MTA:

1. The strongest impression: Luke passed his audition for the Bachelor with flying colors. He hit every note with precision. He had a question about his parting from Jojo, that was given a suitable (if perhaps not truthful) response, he was able to clearly communicate his feelings, he has no ill will toward Jojo, and he is ready for love. Perfection!
2. Chase also passed his audition, but IMO Luke's was the stronger presentation simply because Luke has mad verbal chops.
3. All of the men were delighted to see Jojo again, which speaks well of both her and them. Notable exceptions were Luke and Chase who had hangdog expressions on their faces, but they can be forgiven for that.
4. I loved Jojo's statement that Chad is not worth her breath. I also loved how all of the other men stood and applauded that. What is it with Chad pursuing the exes of other cast members? There is something sick and twisted about that. I'm starting to think that he is not merely a colossal jerk, but also a sociopath. He definitely likes to stir things up. Heaven help the other cast members in BiP.
5. Jojo did a good job of expressing her feelings and preferences. She has done a great job all season, and has been my favorite Bachelorette since Desiree. I like that she states that she is happy now. I sincerely hope that is the case.  

Now, as to which man, Jordan or Robby will win her heart -- for the past few weeks, I've been pretty well convinced that she's had her heart set on Jordan since the beginning. So if you had asked me even a week ago, I would have said that she will pick Jordan, no question. I'm no longer quite as convinced. Is this a manipulation of the producers, trying to turn this into more of a horse race? Perhaps.  But I also think that she is having some serious misgivings about Jordan, about his readiness to commit, his overall maturity level, and his family's estrangement from Aaron.

At the same time, Robby is having a strong finish. Jojo knows that they would have a solid chance with each other. IMO in her eyes Jordan is more of a wild card at this point in the process.

So who will she pick? I honestly don't know. I still tend to think that she will take a chance on Jordan, despite the red flags. But I'm secretly hoping Robby pulls it off.