Vanessa Grimaldi - Bachelor 21 - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #2

I'm not sure how anyone on this show can think they are a frontrunner, when the lead is with other contestants, kissing them, and so forth. I don't recall very many F1's who said they knew they had it in the bag from day one. JMHO

If he's in a pool with Corrine and she's going topless, I'm sure any one of those contestants would feel frustration watching her sexual advances towards Nick especially if they are not that type of person.

I think that's all this is about with Vanessa.

Per RS spoilers, she seems to be attacking DLo's character as being "fake" though - IMO that's not the same as watching Corinne's actions and getting frustrated. DLo may be an import model (maybe former import model), but from her personality (on ep 1 and Roll Models), I can't see her acting like Corrine towards Nick. So I'm really curious where this whole Vanessa talking smack about her thing comes from.

I'm trying to wade through this. I must have missed something somewhere.
Where did RS say "Vanessa attacks DLo's character" and call her "fake"? Where did Vanessa talk smack and what was said?  
I think a lot of subjective interpretation is going on third hand. RS's interpretation alone is subjective and if this is where this stems from it may not be close to objective.
Can we bring over what was said vs what we think was said?
As long as the topic of objectivity is being brought up, the podcast of another cast person in past cast thread is a good listen. This is how things are vs how the show would like the audience to think things are. This was posted by blueblues, thank you. https://soundcloud.com/betchslapped/15-lets-talk-about-smart-things-w-olivia-caridi from this thread if anyone is interested. It really is part of TB 101 course. thread
The situation is very frustrating and surreal. I think most of us would want to pack our bags and leave at some point given the ridiculousness of the situation. JMOAA

RS's episode by episode spoilers are not subjective, they are not his opinions he says what happens on the show. for example before the previews came out he said Corrine took her top which is actually what happen.

What is subjective are his opinions about the contestants.IMO

@Kashathediva
Here it is:

Ep. 4 airing 1/23
At the after party, apparently this is where drama started with Vanessa, as she told Nick & others that Danielle Lombard was fake, even though Danielle and Vanessa were supposedly friends up to that point. Whatever the case, and I’m sure we’ll see more of what went down, but this is where Vanessa’s edit could start taking a turn. But she “warned” Nick about Danielle on this date, which was ironically, the day after Nick had a 1-on-1 with Danielle. Kristina got the group date rose. (RS)

Personally I think sometimes people tend to jump to conclusions too soon, especially if we have heard spoilers and base our opinions on the could-be-true-could-be-not spoilers. My approach is trying to give all the benefits of doubt and wait and see.

Yes, if you visually see someone taking their top of that is data. Something objective.
If you interpret someone is talking smack that is subjective. That is why I asked what the wordage was/is.
Things are frankenbyted and taken from one time in space and placed in another for ITM's.
RS was not there to do editing or live to see how things actually took place when they are being said.

@sdmom
Thanks. As I thought imo much ado about nothing, IMO.
His opinion and the same type of thing that goes on every season that is much ado about nothing.
Like I mentioned earlier, with some of the real ridiculousness of the situation, you are in a damned situation either way. Go with the flow and act goofy you get labeled a crazy onion lady or Olivia. Speak up and your a Courtney. Sit there and meditate, tptb would probably paint you comatose.

I think a lot of subjective interpretation is going on third hand. RS's interpretation alone is subjective and if this is where this stems from it may not be close to objective.

Exactly

Personally I think sometimes people tend to jump to conclusions too soon, especially if we have heard spoilers and base our opinions on the could-be-true-could-be-not spoilers. My approach is trying to give all the benefits of doubt and wait and see.

And this.

This is exactly what I noted earlier about how watching the show spoiled can color one's POV and why I'm starting to feel like this might be a long season. My first time reading this board was Emily's season and honestly, by the end of the season I didn't even care anymore who she chose because the Arie v. Jef stuff just got exhausting. And funny enough those two had no drama between them during the season.

I think it's clear some decided on their Team before the season started. For all the talk about how hyped Vanessa was, I have seen just as many "I just don't care about her", "I'm just not feeling her" long before the season started, when we had little to go on beside some Instagram posts. And RS's spoilers have been latched on to validate an opinion some already had. And you know what, to each his own. But I just think some leaps are being made from nothing more than some spoiler that drama happened. RS stated clearly that he doesn't know what the fight with Rachel and Vanessa was about but just that he heard most of the women were on Rachel's side.

Well that doesn't mean Vanessa did something wrong or was a bad person just because others sided with Rachel. I always like to point out that Josh was popular in the house during Andi's season and remember the hotel gang up against Nick? And as I recall his sin per Brian was that he said he was confident he was going to Hometowns. The stuff about Danielle Lo, yes shady to call her fake if she and Vanessa were friends and if it was meant to sabotage Danielle because Vanessa thought Nick had feelings for her. But we don't know that's what happened. Maybe there was something Danielle said or did that made Vanessa genuinely think she was fake.

Basically all I'm saying is we don't know because none of this has aired yet and all we have to go on is RS's stating drama ensued and Vanessa wasn't the most liked in the house. We've seen one episode where she did nothing offensive in my opinion (no, I don't think her being shocked she didn't get the FIR was this grave sin) and yet there seems to be this desire already to villainize her. Fine, if some don't see the great love story or chemistry. I didn't see amazing chemistry with Ben and Lauren, even if I could tell he was definitely into her.

So I understand those who don't think Vanessa's so stunning or that she and Nick together had this amazing chemistry. That's all fine. It's this narrative that seems to be forming to make her out to be this villain and unlikeable that's baffling, not to mention the forming of Team this one and that one. Do we do this for The Bachelorette and the men? Just asking.

eta: And just to be clear, I'm not a huge Vanessa fan or a Nick and Vanessa as a couple, fan. I never get invested in the pairings from this franchise for obvious reasons. I just haven't seen anything to not like about her and after following Nick since Andi's season, I do think based on what we do know of her, that she aligns very well with what he's said he's most attracted to and looking for in a woman. And yes, after watching the first episode, I thought they had really good chemistry. If and when she does something out of line and if she is wrong and a "villain" at any point in the house, I'll fully acknowledge that.

IMO calling someone "fake" when you're supposedly friends is talking smack - that's just my interpretation though. IA with @Dessler - RS' ep by ep spoilers of what so and so did/said are just what happens in the show - ex. Corrine taking her top off, Liz telling Christen about meeting Nick before, Taylor vs. Corrine - these things happened and we've seen them in previews. Saying that Vanessa calls DLo fake to Nick and the other girls is IMO not his opinion but more just stating something that (allegedly until it's shown) happens. On the other hand - when he goes on and on about Nick being self-absorbed, image conscious etc.  - that's a subjective opinion.

I know I am in a minority, I simply don't understand a team this or a team that. I just watch the show.

So I understand who don't think Vanessa's so stunning and she and Nick were amazing. That's all okay. It's this narrative that seems to be forming to make her out to be this villain and unlikelable that's baffling. And again this whole Team this one and that one. Do we do this for The Bachelorette and the men? Just asking.

It doesn't matter. This is a discussion forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If there are 80% against the spoiled F1 and 20% for or vice versa, again, it doesn't matter. There are non spoiled threads for those who want to participate, and no one has to pay attention to Blogger Boy if they don't want to.

Even after we do see the epi air, there will be a variety of opinions, and again, that's what this forum's purpose is. To discuss the various POV's.

If someone wants to villainize a contestant, it's their right as a member but not within the rules to state they can't or shouldn't.

Remember also CH say the viewers will like Rachel, so something must have gone done for the girls to be on Rachel side.