Becca Tilley - Bachelor 19 - Discussion - #8

Not really related, but I know that Jeremy wasn't supposed to leave at F3, but either his hometown or FS date went badly. Deanna talked about it in her interview with RS, and I believe Chloep confirmed hearing about it too.

Anyways, I'm not denying that TPTB don't create a storyboards for the F4 and I agree that they have preferences for the timing of certain reveals, but I dont think that they have that much power over the order of when the F4 leaves. They make suggestions, but the lead does decide depending on who they think still has potential. Unless the lead is completely 100% gaga over the F1 and has no doubts whatsoever. I think that Chris liked Whitney from early on, but I think that he still wanted to explore his options. I don't think this was a Brad/Emily situation. JMO.

mindless wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

sde1041 wrote:There is NO WAY Becca was a storyboard IMO.
There were so many feelings still there between Chris and her at the ATFR, no way this was scripted. What I have seen on my screen was a man still in love with the woman who was just not ready to say ILY soon enough. That's too bad IMHO, because now he will have to try to fall in love with Whitney who was the good and safe pick on paper.
So many people noticed the same.
But the way Chris and Becca looked at each other on this live ATFR was certainly not part of a storyboard.
IMO.

There is nothing wrong with this POV. Many others are on board with this.
This is the way the show wants it season after season for people to believe in the controversy.  IMOAA. You can literally fill in the blanks with names season after season.
I guess until the couple comes forward and says this_____________is the way it was regardless of what viewers saw on the screen, people will still choose to see as they choose.
Even after couples come out and say _____________, there are still those that will believe the couple can get back together, really are meant to be with each other, blah blah blah.
MO is that of course, Becca and her virgin status was prime fodder and storyline, otherwise it would never have been brought up. MO she was a safe final 2. There I said it. She was not into him.  Jade was out when her status was discovered. Kaitlyn was out for 'ette. That left Becca. Becca left ok with being released. No tears. No hang wringing. Happy from day 1 after leaving. No issues. Chris no issues there.
Until recently there were and me are some still holding out hope for JODI. Sometimes it's hard to let go.

I've watched almost every season of this show and don't remember a single lead who I thought was as into their F2 as Chris was into Becca. Well Jason obviously was, but I didn't watch that season. Chris and Becca just seemed to have a very obvious connection since the beginning and their relationship grew very naturally. Too naturally, which is why it got weird towards the end when they suddenly had to rush to the finish line. It's not natural to propose after 4 dates. But Chris just came alive around her and that can't be faked. He is a lousy actor and we all saw how he was around the women he wasn't really interested in. He seemed totally zoned out or really uncomfortable. That was never the case with Becca, on the contrary, he seemed really interested in her every word. Just because she happened to have a good storyline with the virginity thing doesn't mean she wasn't there because Chris really wanted her there. His feelings were so obvious IMO, and there were some lingering ones there even at ATFR. It was like she was the lead and he was the F2. When he spoke about Becca it came from the heart. "There's not much not to love about Becca." When is he ever that articulate? Quickly denying that it was about the chase and mentioning their "undeniable chemistry". I don't know why I'm even typing this, since it was so obvious to me.

That said, I totally get why he picked Whitney. It made all the sense in the world. She really is perfect for him (on paper) and they get along great and his family loves her. Throwing all that away to take a huge gamble on Becca would be near madness and the producers wouldn't have been very happy with it either. I felt like they were pushing Whitney on him with the super produced special dates and CH trying to put words in his mouth in Bali about being in love with Whitney, which he himself didn't feel right about saying. I'm just still not sure if he's truly fallen in love with her or if he's just trying to convince himself that he has. We'll see. It's not like I want him back with Becca, so I'm hoping for the best.

Oh and I don't think the edit of the finale was trying to lead us to think he picks Becca. Maybe the beginning, but then the rest of the episode was all about Becca not being able to give him what he wants and Whitney being the perfect pick. And the biggest editing trickery was used to build up the relationship with Whitney. They changed the order of the LCD's and left out all the good stuff out of Becca's. When Chris went to her room he was glowing and made some comment about the day being amazing. You could tell they'd had an awesome time and he was hoping she could give him some justification to pick her. Instead he got the opposite. His sister told him to push her for clear answers, so he did and it just left him even more confused. I loved that conversation though, because it was the most real thing I've seen on this show. But in any case, it was the night before the FRC and they conveniently hid that fact. That's pro Whitney editing. They wanted us to think the day with Whitney gave him all the clarity he needed, when it didn't.

Fantastic post!  You have stated what I have seen all season long!  Becca was not just a storyboard.  Chris had strong feelings for Becca and an undeniable connection since day one.  His words, not mine.  There were still some lingering feelings at ATFR, which was 4 months later.  It was written all over his face that he had it bad for that girl!  

mindless wrote:*snipped* ...the biggest editing trickery was used to build up the relationship with Whitney. They changed the order of the LCD's and left out all the good stuff out of Becca's. When Chris went to her room he was glowing and made some comment about the day being amazing. You could tell they'd had an awesome time and ...he was hoping she could give him some justification to pick her. Instead he got the opposite. His sister told him to push her for clear answers, so he did and it just left him even more confused. I loved that conversation though, because it was the most real thing I've seen on this show. But in any case, it was the night before the FRC and they conveniently hid that fact. That's pro Whitney editing. They wanted us to think the day with Whitney gave him all the clarity he needed, when it didn't.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. They are spot on, imo. Too often there is FAR too much credit given to the producers, imo, and this so-called script of there only being one girl planned from the start and no way the lead will into both girls or confused. That, to me, is playing into a fantasy.

Imo, it is a fantasy to think that the lead knows who he wants and everything else is just scripted or producer driven. Very few women will want to fantasize about a man who is into more than one woman and genuinely so. We don't like that guy. We like the guy who is ACTING with everyone else except his F1. That guy we can root for. Imo, THAT is the producer driven/scripted storyline viewers prefer -- where the guy always knew and everything else was scripted. It is after all a 1 man many women show which goes against the grain of what is decent and acceptable. Believing there was one woman only from the get go makes it okay and thinking otherwise is not okay even if it is, in fact, reality. Again, JMHO.

If anything was producer driven with supporting evidence it was the wedding crashing date. It was spoiled that the bride knew about it beforehand. It was scripted as was all the other public dates, imo. It is not like Chris came up with them. That being said, Becca had the most real dates. Even in Bali her date was most real with Chris talking to her about farming. Becca was always hesitant, and Chris sensed that and it made him scared -- his own words on their LCD were "scary". He  needed, not just wanted, reassurance that he did not get. Makes complete sense why he made the choice he did. His own blog indicated this that he seemed he was more upset that Becca wasn't as hurt by him dumping her as he was by dumping her. Crazy way to look at it, imo. And that her non-hurt reaction gave him the clarity he needed. (I saw tears glisten in her eyes and her response was exactly what she told his mother that she was "more concerned about Chris and HIS feelings". That's why, imo, she told him he would make a great husband. More concerned with his feelings). If anything, outside of the "it is scripted" perspective, if Chris is actually being honest he really was conflicted and saying he got clarity based on her reaction to him dumping her says more about him testing her feelings out and pushing for them (his ego?) until the last minute. Scripted or not, he is responsible for his behavior. It is his own.

Furthermore, what happened post-show was more telling: He defended Becca on twitter then quickly deleted the tweet. Then he was on the Ellen Show and talking about Becca he said that her virginity doesn't change how "I feel about" her. Present tense. He had this look on his face like he effed up. The fact that Becca was not F1 and he had that look post-show? He looked like he felt like he was in trouble - not for spoiling anything, but for other reasons seen by many and posted in Us Weekly (which was correct about everything it seems) that Chris would sit on the couch during ATFR with someone he was in love with but just didn't love him back.

His behavior on ATFR was the biggest tell of all that he was still conflicted but it was something he couldn't change. His hesitancy to say if Becca had told him she was in love with him was also telling. If you are 100% happy with your choice you don't need to hesitate at all. Even Chris Harrison on Access Hollywood said it was very awkward watching Chris with Becca on ATFR and that Chris held her 4 seconds too long. Imo, that is why Chris H pressed Whitney about Chris being conflicted. All of Chris H's blogs were saying it wasn't a conflict but he, imo, Chris H went that route not just for 'rating's or whatever but because he was responding to Chris S. behavior when he saw Becca at ATFR.

Again, it doesn't matter -- that ship has sailed. But, this whole idea that social media is false and misleading or that everything is producer driven unless F1-related is just buying into the script as a viewer. And it makes sense that viewers buy into the idea that the lead knew all along. It makes this show socially acceptable (look at the controversy Jason caused and even Blake with Louise in TBAustralia). Reality is very complicated. Life and love is confusing and conflicting. That's what I saw when watching this show with Chris and Becca. Real life on screen. Everything else, imo, was more producer driven than anything that Becca had with Chris.

JMHO.

mindless wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

sde1041 wrote:There is NO WAY Becca was a storyboard IMO.
There were so many feelings still there between Chris and her at the ATFR, no way this was scripted. What I have seen on my screen was a man still in love with the woman who was just not ready to say ILY soon enough. That's too bad IMHO, because now he will have to try to fall in love with Whitney who was the good and safe pick on paper.
So many people noticed the same.
But the way Chris and Becca looked at each other on this live ATFR was certainly not part of a storyboard.
IMO.

There is nothing wrong with this POV. Many others are on board with this.
This is the way the show wants it season after season for people to believe in the controversy.  IMOAA. You can literally fill in the blanks with names season after season.
I guess until the couple comes forward and says this_____________is the way it was regardless of what viewers saw on the screen, people will still choose to see as they choose.
Even after couples come out and say _____________, there are still those that will believe the couple can get back together, really are meant to be with each other, blah blah blah.
MO is that of course, Becca and her virgin status was prime fodder and storyline, otherwise it would never have been brought up. MO she was a safe final 2. There I said it. She was not into him.  Jade was out when her status was discovered. Kaitlyn was out for 'ette. That left Becca. Becca left ok with being released. No tears. No hang wringing. Happy from day 1 after leaving. No issues. Chris no issues there.
Until recently there were and me are some still holding out hope for JODI. Sometimes it's hard to let go.

I've watched almost every season of this show and don't remember a single lead who I thought was as into their F2 as Chris was into Becca. Well Jason obviously was, but I didn't watch that season. Chris and Becca just seemed to have a very obvious connection since the beginning and their relationship grew very naturally. Too naturally, which is why it got weird towards the end when they suddenly had to rush to the finish line. It's not natural to propose after 4 dates. But Chris just came alive around her and that can't be faked. He is a lousy actor and [b]we all saw how he was around the women he wasn't really interested in. [b/]He seemed totally zoned out or really uncomfortable. That was never the case with Becca, on the contrary, he seemed really interested in her every word. Just because she happened to have a good storyline with the virginity thing doesn't mean she wasn't there because Chris really wanted her there. His feelings were so obvious IMO, and there were some lingering ones there even at ATFR. It was like she was the lead and he was the F2. When he spoke about Becca it came from the heart. "There's not much not to love about Becca." When is he ever that articulate? Quickly denying that it was about the chase and mentioning their "undeniable chemistry". I don't know why I'm even typing this, since it was so obvious to me.

That said, I totally get why he picked Whitney. It made all the sense in the world. She really is perfect for him (on paper) and they get along great and his family loves her. Throwing all that away to take a huge gamble on Becca would be near madness and the producers wouldn't have been very happy with it either. I felt like they were pushing Whitney on him with the super produced special dates and CH trying to put words in his mouth in Bali about being in love with Whitney, which he himself didn't feel right about saying. I'm just still not sure if he's truly fallen in love with her or if he's just trying to convince himself that he has. We'll see. It's not like I want him back with Becca, so I'm hoping for the best.

Oh and I don't think the edit of the finale was trying to lead us to think he picks Becca. Maybe the beginning, but then the rest of the episode was all about Becca not being able to give him what he wants and Whitney being the perfect pick. And the biggest editing trickery was used to build up the relationship with Whitney. They changed the order of the LCD's and left out all the good stuff out of Becca's. When Chris went to her room he was glowing and made some comment about the day being amazing. You could tell they'd had an awesome time and he was hoping she could give him some justification to pick her. Instead he got the opposite. His sister told him to push her for clear answers, so he did and it just left him even more confused. I loved that conversation though, because it was the most real thing I've seen on this show. But in any case, it was the night before the FRC and they conveniently hid that fact. That's pro Whitney editing. They wanted us to think the day with Whitney gave him all the clarity he needed, when it didn't.

He didn't have to be , they weren't ever going to get to the f2 position . I wouldn't have expected Chris to treat Becca any other way then how he did , with respect and gentleness . Becca is awesome and beautiful inside and out and I'm sure chris enjoyed his time with her ( who wouldn't ). she was also good friends with Whitney in the house which I'm sure Chris was aware of . Chris said himself on ATFR that the position that he was in being " the bachelor " was very hard ( I'm sure he meant leading on the girls), but he also acknowledged that he knew it was important to keep continuous communications with Whitney so she would know where he stood with his feelings along the way.

AllAboutLove wrote:

Thanks for posting your thoughts. They are spot on, imo. Too often there is FAR too much credit given to the producers, imo, and this so-called script of there only being one girl planned from the start and no way the lead will into both girls or confused. That, to me, is playing into a fantasy.

Imo, it is a fantasy to think that the lead knows who he wants and everything else is just scripted or producer driven. Very few women will want to fantasize about a man who is into more than one woman and genuinely so. We don't like that guy. We like the guy who is ACTING with everyone else except his F1. That guy we can root for. Imo, THAT is the producer driven/scripted storyline viewers prefer -- where the guy always knew and everything else was scripted. It is after all a 1 man many women show which goes against the grain of what is decent and acceptable. Believing there was one woman only from the get go makes it okay and thinking otherwise is not okay even if it is, in fact, reality. Again, JMHO.

If anything was producer driven with supporting evidence it was the wedding crashing date. It was spoiled that the bride knew about it beforehand. It was scripted as was all the other public dates, imo. It is not like Chris came up with them. That being said, Becca had the most real dates. Even in Bali her date was most real with Chris talking to her about farming. Becca was always hesitant, and Chris sensed that and it made him scared -- his own words on their LCD were "scary". He  needed, not just wanted, reassurance that he did not get. Makes complete sense why he made the choice he did. His own blog indicated this that he seemed he was more upset that Becca wasn't as hurt by him dumping her as he was by dumping her. Crazy way to look at it, imo. And that her non-hurt reaction gave him the clarity he needed. (I saw tears glisten in her eyes and her response was exactly what she told his mother that she was "more concerned about Chris and HIS feelings". That's why, imo, she told him he would make a great husband. More concerned with his feelings). If anything, outside of the "it is scripted" perspective, if Chris is actually being honest he really was conflicted and saying he got clarity based on her reaction to him dumping her says more about him testing her feelings out and pushing for them (his ego?) until the last minute. Scripted or not, he is responsible for his behavior. It is his own.

Furthermore, what happened post-show was more telling: He defended Becca on twitter then quickly deleted the tweet. Then he was on the Ellen Show and talking about Becca he said that her virginity doesn't change how "I feel about" her. Present tense. He had this look on his face like he effed up. The fact that Becca was not F1 and he had that look post-show? He looked like he felt like he was in trouble - not for spoiling anything, but for other reasons seen by many and posted in Us Weekly (which was correct about everything it seems) that Chris would sit on the couch during ATFR with someone he was in love with but just didn't love him back.

His behavior on ATFR was the biggest tell of all that he was still conflicted but it was something he couldn't change. His hesitancy to say if Becca had told him she was in love with him was also telling. If you are 100% happy with your choice you don't need to hesitate at all. Even Chris Harrison on Access Hollywood said it was very awkward watching Chris with Becca on ATFR and that Chris held her 4 seconds too long. Imo, that is why Chris H pressed Whitney about Chris being conflicted. All of Chris H's blogs were saying it wasn't a conflict but he, imo, Chris H went that route not just for 'rating's or whatever but because he was responding to Chris S. behavior when he saw Becca at ATFR.

Again, it doesn't matter -- that ship has sailed. But, this whole idea that social media is false and misleading or that everything is producer driven unless F1-related is just buying into the script as a viewer. And it makes sense that viewers buy into the idea that the lead knew all along. It makes this show socially acceptable (look at the controversy Jason caused and even Blake with Louise in TBAustralia). Reality is very complicated. Life and love is confusing and conflicting. That's what I saw when watching this show with Chris and Becca. Real life on screen. Everything else, imo, was more producer driven than anything that Becca had with Chris.

JMHO.

This is a great post and I agree!

It's so interesting to me to read these discussions because one of two things is happening it seems: the relationship with the F2 is diminished to make the final couple's relationship seem greater or the F2's relationship is made to seem greater thus diminishing the final couple's relationship. As someone who didn't care for how the season ended I find it all fascinating.

umngirl wrote:It's so interesting to me to read these discussions because one of two things is happening it seems: the relationship with the F2 is diminished to make the final couple's relationship seem greater or the F2's relationship is made to seem greater thus diminishing the final couple's relationship. As someone who didn't care for how the season ended I find it all fascinating.

It is inevitable to some degree because it is socially unacceptable for them to be on the same playing field (for the lead to feel the same to some degree and due to outside influence/the show/time/their feelings prodded to make a choice). Again, this is a show that starts out with 1 man and multiple women who basically are on the game of survivor where receiving a rose is the equivalent of getting immunity. In the end there are 2 women and 1 man and inevitably viewers will see the end differently, blame it on the edit or not, it doesn't matter, a choice is encouraged to be made and so if anyone is pressurized the most or put into situations that create and induce feelings of romantic interest it is the lead. The lead can even buy into the idea (for a time) that out of these 25-30 women, his soulmate and wife is in this specific group of women and only this group. No time or thought of any options outside that bubble world where there are other fish in the sea - until one gets back into that world. It is really a crazy social experiment of choice and chance. The bottom line is, the lead had relationships with both his F2, so diminishing one or the other is inevitable. Time will reveal anyway if any or none of those fish were one's soulmate. It is actually shocking to me that there have been real marriages from this show given what it is -- an almost apocalyptic premise where there is only one man left on the planet and he gets to choose whom he will take back with him to another planet where there are more people. Hopefully he/she doesn't form an interest in one of those other people once there...
*crazy show*

chasingpavements wrote:
snipped...

I also think it's interesting that everyone is now saying that he needed to let Kaitlyn go at F3 for Bachelorette, but before, everyone was saying that production had always wanted Britt for Bachelorette but recently had to change their minds when they saw the fan response for her.  

As a point of clarification, many of us on this forum stated as early as the Red Carpet premier that it was doubtful Britt was going to be the 'ette considering the ridicule from that very first night. Everyone, meaning RS was saying production wanted Britt. Sleuthers here were piecing information together and could not see how Britt was going to be the chosen one. Kaitlyn positioned in F3 further cemented the heartbreak F3 storyboard leading to the 'ette. Maybe they wanted two possibilities and positioned both Britt and Kaitlyn as potential 'ettes. IMO it is obvious they TPTB were thrown for a loop due to Kaitlyn's popularity.

Mommyof1 wrote:

Fantastic post!  You have stated what I have seen all season long!  Becca was not just a storyboard.  Chris had strong feelings for Becca and an undeniable connection since day one.  His words, not mine.  There were still some lingering feelings at ATFR, which was 4 months later.  It was written all over his face that he had it bad for that girl!  

And to bring it around back to Becca, IA. Becca was one of the most real contestants we've seen in a long time. JPG tried, but we won't go there. Becca, had the maturity to follow her head. I'm sure she realized what a life she could have being the F1 and could have easily taken the chance, giving the lead what he wanted to hear. I'd much rather see someone like Becca who doesn't pretend, one who has standards and doesn't back down to pressure. She handled the ATFR with class. We can see post show she is very happy and has continued on with real life.

She's gorgeous. If she has more modelling job offers, or any other opportunities that come out of her experience, it will only benefit her.

mindless: you are correct! Too funny. Becca is without a doubt a girl who realized that she was not in a apocalyptic world and didn't fall for the glamour or pressure-induced Bach Bubble. Good on her! If she didn't fall for it there while so many have, it raises her chances of finding the right one for her in the long run, which is a better scenario anyway...

ETA: not sure what happened but cannot see your post anymore? Well, just know I was responding to it

Mindless wrote:
I've watched almost every season of this show and don't remember a single lead who I thought was as into their F2 as Chris was into Becca. Well Jason obviously was, but I didn't watch that season. Chris and Becca just seemed to have a very obvious connection since the beginning and their relationship grew very naturally. Too naturally, which is why it got weird towards the end when they suddenly had to rush to the finish line. It's not natural to propose after 4 dates. But Chris just came alive around her and that can't be faked. He is a lousy actor and we all saw how he was around the women he wasn't really interested in. He seemed totally zoned out or really uncomfortable. That was never the case with Becca, on the contrary, he seemed really interested in her every word. Just because she happened to have a good storyline with the virginity thing doesn't mean she wasn't there because Chris really wanted her there. His feelings were so obvious IMO, and there were some lingering ones there even at ATFR. It was like she was the lead and he was the F2. When he spoke about Becca it came from the heart. "There's not much not to love about Becca." When is he ever that articulate? Quickly denying that it was about the chase and mentioning their "undeniable chemistry". I don't know why I'm even typing this, since it was so obvious to me.

80% of viewers were absolutely convinced that Meredith was going to pick Matt, not Ian.

When we only see a small fraction of all the interactions, it is pretty easy to edit the date to look any way the producers want it to.

I do find the post show indications interesting, but any discussion that relies on what we saw during the show is, to me, inherently suspect.

AllAboutLove wrote:mindless: you are correct! Too funny. Becca is without a doubt a girl who realized that she was not in a apocalyptic world and didn't fall for the glamour or pressure-induced Bach Bubble. Good on her! If she didn't fall for it there while so many have, it raises her chances of finding the right one for her in the long run, which is a better scenario anyway...

I loved this about her.

dw_a_mom wrote:

Mindless wrote:
I've watched almost every season of this show and don't remember a single lead who I thought was as into their F2 as Chris was into Becca. Well Jason obviously was, but I didn't watch that season. Chris and Becca just seemed to have a very obvious connection since the beginning and their relationship grew very naturally. Too naturally, which is why it got weird towards the end when they suddenly had to rush to the finish line. It's not natural to propose after 4 dates. But Chris just came alive around her and that can't be faked. He is a lousy actor and we all saw how he was around the women he wasn't really interested in. He seemed totally zoned out or really uncomfortable. That was never the case with Becca, on the contrary, he seemed really interested in her every word. Just because she happened to have a good storyline with the virginity thing doesn't mean she wasn't there because Chris really wanted her there. His feelings were so obvious IMO, and there were some lingering ones there even at ATFR. It was like she was the lead and he was the F2. When he spoke about Becca it came from the heart. "There's not much not to love about Becca." When is he ever that articulate? Quickly denying that it was about the chase and mentioning their "undeniable chemistry". I don't know why I'm even typing this, since it was so obvious to me.

80% of viewers were absolutely convinced that Meredith was going to pick Matt, not Ian.

When we only see a small fraction of all the interactions, it is pretty easy to edit the date to look any way the producers want it to.

I do find the post show indications interesting, but any discussion that relies on what we saw during the show is, to me, inherently suspect.

I remember that. They did everything they could to keep it a surprise including never giving M/I a place to sit, making his brother look creepy, & having her tell Matthew she'd be honored to get a ring from him.

I tend to think Jade was going to be the f2 person prior to her reveal (so to speak). Becca would have been probably f4 and Kaitlyn still f3. That way Becca wouldn't have even told Chris about being a virgin. Still think she should have told him by that last date before the HTD but guess it doesn't matter now. Of course I don't think she should have come on the show at all but not because of that. She doesn't appear to have been ready for a serious relationship which is great but why waste everyone's time?